All about Trees & Plants

RE: All about Trees & Plants

Hi All,

I am currently starting a business to sell High quality trees/shrubs/plants [in the GrowFX file format] for use in Archviz or other 3d projects.
As an Viz- Artist for the last 7-8 years, I have learned a lot about issues & problems associated with creating & using 3D trees/plants. Although I have my own ideas of what I think is really important, I would love to know what others think!!
So let it all out…tell me what gives you the shits with using/buying 3D trees & plants in your projects??? Is it a lack of specific species…bad quality models…not able to tweak???. Anything at all, just let me know what problems you currently deal with. That way I can fix your problems by providing 3D trees & plants that make you happy again :stuck_out_tongue:

All the best & I appreciate your valuable time…thanks!

Cheers
Jamie [3DMK]


I was wondering just last week when you were going to start selling models! About time.

I could suggest perhaps a green-wall pack. After seeing your great gree-wall renders I think that could be a good product. Plus maybe some distribution maps to go with it or something.

Also I think maybe doing some standard council specified trees for major cities around the world. And not just a single model, either a GrowFX definition or at least 5 models.

That’s all I can think of now but pre converted to proxy trees nicely organized and at 0,0,0 etc etc are always appreciated.

Shit actually I would be more interested in purchasing some good video tutorials over trees!

Hi Jamie,

All of the above are important. It’s impossible to focus on any specific species of vegetation. The bulk of my projects, the trees and shrubs are specified by the landscape architect. I look online to see what the plant or tree would look like, then thumb through my existing library to see if I have that specific item or what might look pretty close. Turbosquid seems to have some decent models but there are always room for more. The only thing I would suggest is stay away from opacity based leaves. When I see a model that is opacity based…I DO NOT GET IT!!. I think everyone on this forum understands opacity based leaves are the Vray rendering kiss of death. There are some very nice models that are all geometry. Sure, you have more poly’s but it renders so much faster. The other thing I would suggest is to offer your services to model specific items at a competitive rate when needed by the artist. You can do this by having an understanding with the artist that the item you are creating will be offered for sale to the general public. This way, you can offer the model at a reasonable rate and make up the difference on the back side. If the artist wishes to keep the model only to themselves, then you will need to charge more. I would be interested in hiring you for such a task. I run into several occasions where I need a specific tree that is unique in nature. If you are interested, drop me an email Smalerbi4760@gmail.com.

thanks,

Scott

I would love to see a library specific for VRay, of course, but specifically for heavy scenes. I had a library before that had young, medium, and adult versions of the same tree. I would love to see the same thing, but for level of details. One for close up, one for mid way distance, and one for far away. That would be the bomb!

Hello,

I will add…
Some general shit causers

-missing maps
-none sense material names
-nonsense object names
-leaf color variation either entirely overdone, or way too uniform.
-use of translucency and/sss or standard materials, 2sided is fine.
-floating leaf geometry = really hate this.

Other thoughts…
-minimum of 5 variations per species
-low poly geometry with separate trunks&leaves, that can be turbosmoothed for close ups
-or high poly and lo poly version
-catalog that indicates heights in all the usual units, not just metric or imperial.
-for each species, a nice neat canopy version for landscape installations and a wild or rural version.
-including pre-created v-ray proxies would be nice.
-scene - exact scene file should be included that was used to generate product previews. This provides assurance the same result can be achieved without post/comp work.

That’s it for now, I guess :slight_smile:
Nice previews by the way!
Good luck with your new venture…

Having different bottom of canopy options could be beneficial. I like having my library divided between trees that work well for screening/planting beds and pedestrian/roadway areas. I have not had much use for wild or forest tree types myself, but I am sure that is another category that would be distinguished from the other two and likely something that some would find useful.

I struggle to find nicely pruned trees in the small to medium size. Maybe with the built up soil around as if they were maintained professionally or recently planted. And for trees in general possibly making two versions of the canopies…one dense and one light or maybe make the leaves in two separate objects so you can turn off half of the leaves for a lighter canopy. That way you can use the light versions in front of buildings without blocking too much.

Logical material names and objects.
I don’t like the translucency/sss on leaves.
V-ray proxies appreciated.

Apart from a few purchased trees we *try* to create our own using Onyx when we have a specific requirement (i.e. canopy height and branch density etc). Onyx certainly isn’t without its problems though. One of the major annoyances with it (apart from my own skill level!) is where boughs intersect the trunk, or branches intersect the boughs. There is no way to grade them into eachother properly, either through mapping or geometry.

Trees are good, but ground cover plants are also handy, such as low shrubs that will work well ForestPro.

Pre-created vrayproxies would be nice with logical materials (vrayproxies don’t have materials applied and saved with them, right?)

A way of ‘thinning’ the leaves would be good. Clients are forever asking us to ‘make trees more transparent’! One way could be to reduce the number of leaves. Another way might be to have 3 different sizes of bitmap/alpha leaves.

No bloody palm trees! :wink:

Lots of Aussie trees please :slight_smile:

When I save a v-ray proxy, it goes along with it’s materials. I suppose if you exported it without materials than it would stay that way.
+1 for “thinning”
+1 no palms (nothing personal against palms…only because I bought some for one job and will probably never need them again.)

More tropical trees!

but actual tropical trees, we already have 8 variations of the same palm and none of a ton of really common trees.

stuff like this if you’re up to it -

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond.
Too many deadlines have prevented me getting back to you all sooner :frowning:
I will give some more info over the next few days that will hopefully answer your most of your questions…and may well spark a few more!

All the best
Jamie

I don’t necessarily agree with the comment that opacity mapped leaves are evil - at some point, 12 million poly trees become impractical, especially on a network.

will agree here, too…as long as opacity’s filtering is unchecked, they seem just fine.

I’d love it if proxies were provided that it was just for the leaf canopy & smaller upper branches with the trunk left as a mesh and grouped (linked?). they’re never particularly high poly, and sometimes you want to throw a meshsmooth & displacement on a couple in the foreground. having to bring in the original model leaves and all to do this is a pain in the ass.

Opacity Leaves are not the kiss off depth

I agree totally. Geometry leaves are always faster, but opacity leaves are fine when used properly. As Duke mentioned, it’s not fun or fast networking 10’s of millions of polygons. Sometimes it’s completely impractical to have geometry leaves, especially with leaves that have a very complex outline. You would end up with a 200 million polygon tree!
Here is a quick test of the difference between Geometry & opacity leaves. It shows you that even when rendering 100,000’s of overlapping leaves that opacity mapping is not so bad after all :slight_smile: The render times also include GI calculation, as I thought it was important to show it how it performs with all render calculations.
Both leaf materials are Vray2Sided.
Just remember to turn off any filtering & make sure your alpha map is only Black & White [no grey-scale] . Also use as small a bit map as possible to speed up renders.

As a side note-- My trees & plants will have High-Poly & low poly leaves/other parts that can be turned on or off at the click of a button. That’s why I am using GrowFX to produce the models. It seems most people want the ability to tweak things about the model & even for occasional users, tweaking a tree in GrowFX is very easy. Anything you want to tweak can be done so very quickly & easily. Simply turn off the alpha leaves & turn on the Geometry leaves, as most trees will have both options included. GrowFX also has very easy to use optimizing functions so can can get as many or as few polygons as you need at the click of a button.

Hope this helps
Cheers


Waiting on MORE client changes so I have a chance to write some more info.

It seems that most people really need flexibility with the models they buy & use.
With clients constantly asking to change or tweak things, you need the flexibility to change things models quickly & easily. I remember when design connected started they had a proprietary file format & you couldn’t change the mesh. That just didn’t work for people who needed to constantly modify the models to suit the clients desires. They quickly changed it & allowed a standard mesh format that you could change as they noticed our industry demands flexibility above all. They seem to have hit the mark with quality/price & flexibility & are doing very well.

Flexibility is the main reason I am reluctant to sell a static mesh that is difficult, time consuming & sometimes impossible to change. [Not to mention the huge file sizes]
That’s the reason I am choosing to keep the model as a GrowFX object. Everything & Anything can be tweaked/changed instantly, as well as the ability to react to objects in your scene, which a static mesh can NEVER do. I think that once people start to use parametric trees in daily production, they quickly discover that the versatility they offer is priceless.
Although GrowFX is parametric, you can simply create a mesh or a Vray proxy as you need it…and with the ability to tweak how many polygons you want on your display proxy.
It took me a while to move away from using proxys out of habit of using Onyx for years…it just crashed too often to trust], GrowFX is very very stable, & it’s so much nicer dealing with tiny file sizes & data transfers.
It seems that everyone is asking for proxy’s, but I find that using parametric software saves you from generating & networking gigabytes of unessesary mesh data. [especially if you have an animation such as wind which can 10-15 Gb for just one tree]

GrowFX objects work natively with Forest Pro so there is no need to create a proxy or mesh. By using a parametric object like GrowFX you can do without networking countless gigabyte of data, as each tree is generated by the Renderslave at rendertime [usually within a few seconds]. To send 20 different trees in GrowFX format is about a 2-3MB, as opposed to sending possibly 10GB of data as meshes. Anyone with a network & huge scenes would see a massive benifit.
You can also just open the max file and convert to a mesh or Vray proxy yourself, if you really need to work that way.You will be able to work the way you like anyway :slight_smile:

---Naming will be done on a professional level. All trees & plants will be named by Correct family/species name as well as common names. The website will have a search engine to help find the right tree or plant quickly. Search by name, shape, colour, form, etc.
All trees/plants will have a easily understood naming convention such as Trunk, branch, twig, leaf, etc.
Materials will also be named in the same manor. All materials will also be Vray-ready with the max file containing the product renders included. LWF & vray sun & sky are used for preparing the materials.

--- The trees I will sell will have enough variation to suit ANY & all needs. Most trees will have 5 - 10 variations including young & mature versions, pruned architectural & wild as well.As the Flora will be in GrowFX format, you will also have limitless variation by simply using the unique seed button [which you can do without having to learn anything about the software.] Having the tree/plant as a parametric object also gives you the ability to change EVERYTHING! Wider-shorter-taller-bigger less or more leaves or trunk/branches…you name it & you can do it. Most people realize that clients are hard to please so quick & easy tweaking of the tree is usually necessary, and is quite easy even for the occasional user.

--- The trees & plants will be sold individually & as discounted Packs so you can save money & only get what you need

Client has called back with changes -- I’ll update more info over the weekend.
Cheers
Jamie

Obviously I haven’t read all the entries above, so this might be a dupe, but it seems there is a severe lack of Perennial plants (these are very common at least in Europe), and to a certain extent bushes/shrubberies.
I do a LOT of landcaping projects, and my biggest problem is trying to get a hold of these perennials, or even something that might look close enough.

Another thing, regarding trees mostly, is that most available trees come as if they have grown freely out in nature, but in the world of landscaping and architecture, you often need specific trees that have been shaped/pruned for example for street use, where lower branches are cut off during growth and the canopy might be slightly more “tidy” and neat than one that grows in the forest. The stuff I have seen are usually either 100% natural growth, or something on the opposite end of the scale, more akin to trees you’d find in a baroque garden or shaped to something stupid like in a Disney movie.

TL/DR: We need plants and trees in the middle spectrum, somewhere between jungle and Disney world.