New price model

Licensing General
1

For the first time in 20 years I am seriously considering jumping off this train. With the new pricing model of yours, see the following annual prerequisites for delivering 3d-visualizations:

  • 3ds max, around €2000
  • Chaos viz-package, around €1000 (€800 for the cheapest non-floating annual license)
  • Good modern 3d models from stores, estimated around €600
  • Creative Cloud, around €800

This is even before hardware upgrade funds, which is around €1000 per year. Drone footage is already being tracked in Blender, if else you could also add €1000.

This adds up to over €5000 every year just to keep the base going. Archviz is the most expensive area I have ever encountered, with the most competition I have ever encountered.

For me, what this Chaos package does is doubling the price on Vray + Vantage. Why not sell these two as a package? No, I stopped using Anima a few years back, since it just slows me down with its horrible workflow requirements. Chaos Cosmos is only good for placeholder objects, as it almost doesn’t contain any state-of-the-art objects for my market. Phoenix, nope, also stopped using that some years ago in archviz connection, because no need for it. This can and should be done in post in a simpler, more scaleable and cheaper way than embedding with a heavy simulation. Hiding increased cost by adding more useless products is not the way to go.

So should I have to switch to open source solutions? Maybe?
Or maybe I could just stop doing this bullshit and get a proper job instead of working my ass off to pay licenses.
In the emerging world of AI, we already have lost clients who does the job themselves in a fraction of our cost with Twinmotion or Enscape.

What you are doing is chopping off the trunk of your own tree. But of course, since you already own this designer/architect market with Enscape, you get your money anyway. Autodesk might be worse off.

Sorry for being a tiny bit negative here, but this is a bad hidden way to increase cost. It’s no coincidence that you cannot choose monthly on the Archviz-package. Looking at your total product list now vs a few years back is just mind blowing. There have emerged so many products that I’m not sure where to start. As an archviz artist I am not interested in paying for your acquisitions of other companies that only brings more competition to the table for my profession, sorry.

That said, I know that my voice isn’t counting in your product development department, but I just cannot let this slip without a comment to let you know how I feel.

2

Hi Jon,

Thank you sincerely for your insightful and constructive feedback, much appreciated.

I do understand some of the points you are making, industry-wide as well as specifically in relation to our Chaos ecosystem, but I believe there might be some aspects of our new subscription plans, particularly the ArchViz Collection option, that should be clarified in greater depth, and particularly in the context of your current active subscriptions. I will reach out directly over email for this.

I want to underline that every customer’s feedback is truly important to us and to thank you again for taking the time to share yours.

3

I think it’s important for us to know if our forum feedback is actually passed up the management chain in any way?

4

It is indeed.

5

Thank you for responding.

If you at least could ensure real value in the additional products that you have put into the archviz-package, it would be a bit better. But at least for me, I don’t need Phoenix and Anima. I had license on those two softwares years ago, and ended up didn’t using them in a tight production environment on day to day basis. I haven’t missed any of them for a second. There simply isn’t viable spending time fiddling around with these things. I am not a student, nor do I want to work for free. I am working on real projects with tight budgets and tight deadlines.

Anima, it should all be native without having to create an external project file.

When it comes to Cosmos, you should really see to the marketplaces (3dsky etc) to ensure the best of the best quality assets, not some asset that should crosswork with eg Revit AND 3ds max. As mentioned, for placeholder objects, great, but for proper hi end production models, not so great. All objects I try towards the customers, it’s eighter “Ugly, find another one”, or “Outdated, find a modern one”. And it’s hard to argue.

Nik, I will follow up your email, but my point is having a archviz-package without bloatware (Anima and Phoenix) - and if you HAVE to add them, please add real value. Cosmos has potential, so keep up the good work on that, especially some of the materials. And great for mockups.

6

Have you tried 3ds Max Indie license?
I dont know if you qualify but you might have to look into it, hope it helps.

https://www.autodesk.com/campaigns/me-indie/3dsmax-indie

7

I 100% agree with this. i am still download 3d model from other website, because cannot find suitable 3d model for my project.

8

Do you realize that we are the smucks paying for our software? People pimping $200 renderings are advertising themselves as thieves. I recall Vladimir saying that once a new crack comes out, Corona subscriptions plummet, and once Chaos pushes out an update, they return until the next crack comes out. All the high-quality assets can be found on pirate websites. A lot of the stuff on 3DSKY is stolen assets being sold there.

Software developers need to step up and create a way that software can’t be cracked. There should be an auditing system so that legitimate people can get credentials for their software.

Having said that, even $5000 a year is a low cost of entry for a business.

9

What on earth has any of this to do with piracy? You do not fix this by cracking down on piracy. Doesn’t work, never has worked and more often than not it backfires. You don’t need fucking auditing… jesus christ. What’s next? Body cavity searches for hidden usb sticks with cracks on it? You think chaos isn’t already using any means to see if you have shady stuff on your pc? If I wasn’t forced to I wouldn’t install a chaos product on any of my machines at this point. The only people you really piss off with this are your own legitimate customers. There will always be a workaround, always be stolen assets. You think “fixing” piracy will make that guy from some second or third world country suddenly pay 5k a year for software licenses? Of course not. You “fix” this problem by making it fair and pleasant for those who can and want to buy the licenses. Why did streaming practically eradicate movie piracy when it took of? Because it was a bloody good deal and pirating simply wasn’t worth it for many people anymore. Why is piracy coming back? Because the streaming services now screw you over at any chance they get.

The complaint here is that Chaos is now an investment company that couldn’t give less of a shit about what the customer actually needs but what they can make them pay. The perpetual upgrades? Deliberately priced to keep people from upgrading. The restructuring in “solo” and “premium” licenses? Designed to make us pay more for what we already had. Now? Just click through the whole new shop for a bit… corporate bullshit and layers and layers everywhere, just to push you to buy bundles. If it was about what users want, you’d be able to make your own bundle. “You want to buy 1 year? Hey, wouldn’t you rather buy 3 years for 3x the price? What? No, hahah, you don’t get a discount for that, we benevolently grant you to fix the price for those 3 years, you should be grateful!” - “Oh you want to buy vray solo for 3 years? Sooo sorry, we can’t do that… but you can buy preeeemium, it’s possible there!”

Really? I feel insulted being a chaos customer by now.

The studio I work at hasn’t upgraded since Vray 5, won’t upgrade anymore. I’ve upgraded my personal license to 6, which I regret. Won’t upgrade or buy anything from chaos anymore. We’re pushing more and more work over to Unreal engine for talking head character animation stuff and we’re making efforts to push more of the other work from max to blender and houdini - vray is not the renderer of choice in either of them. We’re just sick and tired of what this company has become in the last couple of years and I’m gladly not alone in this. Chaos has the monopoly in offline rendering now, and they show it.

10

I understand your frustration, but you don’t have to be rude. If 80% of the people you are competing with don’t pay for software, it has much to do with piracy. You can raise your price, and the software cost would be less of an issue. Like shoplifting, the cost trickles down to the ones who pay.

11

You just said 5k a year for licenses is basically nothing for a business. What exactly does it change then if those pirates have 5k less expenses? The 200-bucks-a-job people you are complaining about aren’t sitting in the same country as you. Their cost of living is a tenth of yours, probably less. If they can compete with you at your quality level than there’s no software price low enough for you or high enough for them to fix that. Piracy doesn’t make a dent in this case.

12

Chaos will charge as much as they can; capitalism. The ball is ultimately in our corner. Yes, the price has gone up, and the innovation and support have gone down. When people stop renewing licenses, they may throw a Hail Mary and have indie licenses, like Autodesk did with MAX. I know very few people who still use V-Ray. Maybe the larger studios, which move slowly to change, still use V-Ray, and Chaos is milking them for all they can. Again, I feel your pain!

13

Hi @jon_berntsen , I’m the responsible product manager for our Chaos Cosmos library. Would be great to get some more details on what in particular you’re missing in Cosmos. Any specific brands that you have in mind when talking about “state-of-the-art” content that you search for?

For Cosmos I must admit, it’s a challenge to find the right content for all our different user audiences, when you talk about we don’t offer content for high quality production, what exactly do you mean and miss?

You can also always reach out to me via private chat or via our portal where we gather all user requests: https://chaoscosmos.ideas.aha.io/

Happy to hear from you!
Lena​

14

Hi @lena_hoffmann , sorry for being late in my response. Thank you for reaching out.

I understand the challenge about having the right content for all the different audience groups. I know that I’m not representing the only demand. I represent Scandinavia (with all it’s variety). However, first, I have a feeling that the word “Scandinavia” is too connected with what we see as the traditional Scandinavian cliches like white bright curtains and white sofas. That’s not what I (my customers) want.

I believe that the best way to describe what I want is via a site like this: Del ditt Skeidar-hjem | Inspirasjon fra kunder | Skeidar. While the norwegian company Skeidar isn’t the highest level of interior design, it do represent a pretty neutral and modern look, which is something 95% of my customers want. Too specialized stuff = just for the very special projects, where you usually have to custom made the assets anyway.

I will PM you with a little more info.

15

Having just realised Anima All no longer works I’m definately with you Jon, I hadn’t seen anything about this on newsletters or direct email, the studio only bought the Anima All access earlier in this year supposedly a years access so I assume a refund is on its way??? I also agree about the quality of some of the Cosmos furniture content, there is so little that we would ever contemplate using, the plants have been great but we already had huge libraries of content so duplicating most of it. I switched from Adobe to Affinity when they went subscription, I’m halfway to Blender from Max, I don’t know if I will make the switch to Unreal, I think AI will have replaced me within a year, our designers can sketch up a property and generate images in seconds an inhouse visualiser is no longer needed. The clients dont care what software is used in viewing their new house or office, or if its on a licensed version. Cost is all that’s important to developers and increasing costs to reflect software increases only pushes them towards asia and south america faster. The introduction of Max Indie is interesting but would need to clarify what part of the job has the $100K limit, the production of 3d model and visuals or the total cost of the build I bet I know which it would be.