But I do use LWF sometimes, and I know why it’s used.
Sorry about the abuse, just took offense that you assumed that I brought up those points because I didnt know it. nevermind eh, we’ve all got our own methods :lol:
I work strictly in architecture and I see great value in using LWF even if the all the work we do remains in-house, even with the same person through the project’s lifespan. We have a high volume of work(around 20+ projects per week currently), and it is necessary that we are able to predict the outcome of a project early on regardless of the colors/textures involved…LWF makes that possible.
In fact, I recently attempted a project in our previous workflow just to see if working in LWF has made any difference. What I ran into were increased rendering times on top of more time spent tweaking lighting, materials, model, etc.
Everyone is entitled to work within their comfort zone, but for us, the evidence has stacked quite favorably towards LWF despite the rough transisiton, and we have no reason nor desire to revert to a previous workflow for any possible scenario. For us, it has solved many more problems than it has raised.
If you work in a way that is consistent and predictable, you are able to spend more time improving in other areas, so why wouldn’t such a workflow be widely accepted and suggested?
Beestee I agree completely.
Well here’s a little photoshop diagram of the way I see this whole gamma correction issue:
I assume that most people want to see things in Max and in your monitor in the same way. Most things (LCD monitors, digital cameras, photoshop, windows, etc…) work in a gamma 2.2 space, BUT Max works in a linear 1.0 space. Working in 1 and seeing in 2.2 is incorrect. Monitors suck and can’t translate colors in a linear fashion, they have to apply a weird non linear (gamma) curve. If you try to display linearly recorded color on a non-linear output device like a monitor, you will not get linear output, and the result is a slightly different (darker) color than intended.
max default is not linear…it’s sRGB that’s the whole point. And regarding calibration anf gamma correction in an ideal world everything would be done linear and you’d have color profiles ONLY for outputting to any kind of device (like sRGB for your screen or some special profile, some printer profile for your printer etc etc).
Regards,
Thorsten
Yep - those diagrams illustrate the point.
However, you cannot account for how each independent renderer is going to handle those curves or linearization. A slight programmatical difference and then shadows and colors can go far off quickly.
For instance, I still have problems with the VraySky/Sun when using LWF on exteriors. Androkonis agreed with me on his exteriors as well. I think LWF works fine from a method standpoint, but there is some discrepancy with sun/sky and cameras when corrected to 2.2. The color balance seems off - it’s as if the sun/sky don’t adjust to a 2.2 solution properly. The GI from the sky (not sun) doesn’t seem to cast properly. You will also notice discrepancies with HDR multipliers.
For that particular reason, this is why something other than LWF could be employed for more visually accurate/appealing results on exteriors. Perhaps RWF or simply sticking to a Reinhard color mapping would work even better.
The end results no matter what is what matters ultimately - but for interiors LWF takes you 95% of the way there.
Mind you once more that the bigger problems arise in post…see Redirection
sRGB even fucks up scaling…so how would it do color operations correctly ? Regarding Sun and Sky mind you that the VRay implementation (just like 99% of the other implementations of sky systems out there) are NOT physical Sun/Sky simulations…they are physically BASED ANALYTICAL models…that’s quite some difference, so color should be taken with a grain of salt by all means…linear or not 
Regards,
Thorsten
why cant we just render properly with VRay? why do people always have to go to post? I’m geussing it speeds things up in post because you can fix your mistakes easier that way (that comment wasn’t aimed at anybody in specefic, I’m just thinking out loud). So if there is some kind of method or workflow that will help us to do a whole lot LESS post, I’m all for it! So far LWF is not working for me. I’m not getting the same results as others in this forum. As soon as I have time I want to try this RWF method.
3dkad I like the results you got so far. It looks nice however I prefer your exterior tests more than the interior ones. When I try this method I’ll probably have more comments.
Instinct and Cubiclegangster I have no doubt that you are two of the experts here and I’m sure you know what you are talking about. I have not experienced the problems in post yet that you mention Instinct, however as time goes on, I’ll probably get there also and ask you guys for some help. But for now, open a cold one, put your feet up and smile 
Check the link, save the source images and try it yourself in Photoshop. The examples are exxagerated of course. but still this does happen in any sRGB manipulation you do. more subtle but it’s there.
And why do you insist on rendering a perfect pic straight out. I am afraid as long as there’s a client this wont be the most effective way. As there’s a marketing departement looking for a specific look. If a manufacturer builds a cheap product with cheap materials he surely doesnt want his ad’s to reflect that
Regards,
Thorsten
why cant we just render properly with VRay? why do people always have to go to post?
That would be nice. A long time ago I pointed out some of my LWF experiments and final results to Vlado after having banged my head against Throb’s original LWF post.
The problem is that Vray was designed around Max. Max to begin with, operated in it’s own universe at 1.0. I speculated with him that the reason people were getting very good results (albeit at larger render times) with Maxwell is that Maxwell circumvented Max’s 1.0 by being a standalone renderer.
When I was rendering with LWF using Vray, I was getting pretty close results to Maxwell’s realism at a fraction of the time.
I’m assuming fryrender operates similarly (as a standalone) although I have never used it.
Perhaps Mental Ray has taken a queue (again, I haven’t used this) and adjusted their settings to match LWF as well. They would be wise to do so.
AFAIK, the only real way to ‘settle’ this properly once and for all would for Vray to be a standalone not tied to Max’s own default gamma stupidity, or if there was a way for Vray by default to modify Max’s default gamma to begin with.
With the later, I don’t know if it is possible.
that wouldnt solve a thing. as LDR textures would still be sRGB and converted on the fly…wich might look ueberstupid on some :////
Regards,
Thorsten
huh? With LWF setup as it stands, textures (let’s not confuse people Instinct with LDR or HDR terminology here) should be set to 2.2 input in Max preferences.
I don’t understand how that could ‘screw’ things up any more than Max does by default. I think you have your information wrong - or perhaps I’m just misunderstanding you.
Im trying to use LWF for a while, i can clearly see that i can get a better distribution of light, plus better color bleeding( as well as i get quicker render times), I see that mi interior renderings have improved but in my exterior I have a lot of truebles with material color an map colors control.I tried leles .255 workflow but in some times I get good colors and sometimes not, Idont know what I am doing wrong. Im using vray 1.5 with vray sun and sky with pys cam.
If anybody can clear the subject about how to use correctly material colors and maps for color concordancy?
Thanks a lot
Onz
I hate to hijack this guy’s thread, but I’ll try to answer your questions.
If in Max preferences, you have it set to 2.2 input, then you don’t need to colorcorrect bitmaps.
As for diffuse/plain color swatches:
1) Get specific RGB color value (such as a wall paint from the manufacturer.)
2) Put a Vraycolor map in the empty button next to the diffuse color.
3) Put the RGB values in the grey swatch there.
4) Done.
As for exteriors and Vraysun/sky + camera - I haven’t been able to get good results. I think it has something to do with the Vraysky not contributing enough bluish GI in the shadow areas.
I wonder if embedding the VRaySky in a colorcorrect map with gamma adjusted to 2.2 would fix this?
Tried that long ago - nope.
I get consistent results without using LWF. Sure my rendering times may be slightly longer than by cranking up the gamma but i am using light sources to brighten the scene, not a blanket blast of gamma radiation to everything which IMHO makes many LWF images look flat and fake.
Works for some, doesn’t work for others. I guess my main issue for wanting to use LWF at the moment is because when clients pick out colours, I always have to enter the RGB values and adjust by estimation the level of correction required to these values in order to make it render out correctly in vray (usually i have to darken the colour).
I found the thread regarding the difference between linear grey point (128) and ‘exponential’ grey point (186?) as being the main reason why my greys and colours arnt correct very interesting. I guess that i’ve been manually adjusting values by a similar amount for a long time and am used to doing it this way despite it not being very accurate - it relies on experience to know how to adjust certain colours.
So anyway, my conclusion is that if you use LWF, maybe there is less estimation required so although i prefer not to use this method it has its merits. If you arnt able to use LWF for exteriors because of issues regarding vray sun/sky not being tweaked to work correctly with it then i’ll not be attemting to make the transition personally.
RWF is basically LWF but its pretty close to a compromise between the two methods similar to how some professionals have been using 1.8 gamma instead of 1.0 or 2.2 for years.
One thing that i’m wondering. Is LWF really solving the problem? does it accurately correct all colour from an ‘exponential’ range back to linear by only changing the gamma or is it just approximating things? BTW i’m calling it exponential colour range because this is how it was referred to in article posted by instinct a page or two back in this thread.
Its all a healthy discussion and although i’m not using LWF I want to sit on the fence and see how things pan out before making the leap. I dont think i’m missing anything at the moment but please correct me if needed!
Well when it comes to linear we are only discussing what it does to lights and materials. But it has a just as big impact in post (yes i am repeating myself and i wont stop till i rule the woooorld *cough*cough* did that come out loud ?). It makes things very unpredictable in many cases. Sure you can estimate and compensate with experience but when you wouldnt have to you could use that experience and estimation times for something different : making better pictures
There sure are a lot of letdowns, especially since i dont know of any app out there besides nuke and some commandline stuff that is even capable to fully work in linear. Of course as Max is non-linear by default going linear provides a whole new world of pitfalls (like gamma correcting procedurals and alike).
VRaySun and Sky beeing off wasnt an issue for us so far as we hardly ever use them due to the nature of our projects. I understand that this is a pretty big issue for many users out there tho!
Kind Regards,
Thorsten
P.S. “Professionals using 1.8” wasnt that because Macs use 1.8 instead of the windows 2.2 ? could be off track there but something is ringing in the back of my head *scratching*
The white balance in the camera might be knocking out the blue from the sky. With a Neutral white balance I get a bluish tint all over the place.
s LWF really solving the problem? does it accurately correct all colour from an ‘exponential’ range back to linear by only changing the gamma or is it just approximating things?
Yes it really is solving the problem from a mathematical standpoint by equalizing the main applications. Then it’s up to the rendering engine and the materials to be properly adjusted to get them all to ‘sync’ properly - if there’s an error there than there is an error there…
@rmejia - I’ve been thinking about this and you may be right, but I need to test it. I know Androkinos has been getting spectacular results on his exteriors with LWF - I’m not quite sure what he is doing to tweak his scenes. White Balance is quite funny - if you are off slightly with a specific WB color it totally changes the atmosphere of a scene. This is one major reason why I wish WB could be adjusted dynamically in the VFB.