VrayRT price confusion

V-Ray V-Ray GPU General
1

i just got informed by trinity3d that the price of my purchase had to be raised to 355$ instead of 299$, because i ordered from europe.

i’d like to know the reason for this, since the price doesn’t even include sales tax, which would be mandatory for european transactions.

if the price of 350€ includes sales tax (20% in bulgaria?), that would explain the price difference, but in that case i wouldn’t be able to buy from an american reseller, because i’d need an invoice with quoted tax then (to get that stupid tax refunded from the finance office).

please clarify…

2

Just order from Vismasters ! Never had to pay extra there !

3

What???..the charged me 35$ today for shipping.

Preisler

4

I thought the shipping options were an error and they still needed to change that to “download only”…

5

I will send them an e-mail and ask them.

Preisler

6

I’ll try to get some of the sales people to comment on that.

Best regards,
Vlado

7

Price

Dear Mr. Lorenz,

Hi, I am Teddy from Sales @ Chaos and I will do my best to explain.

About 2 weeks ago (the 17th of May) we posted on the website the news that we start V-Ray RT sales on the 1st of June. (news ID 118 ). Newsletters have been sent to all clients subscribed to our newsletter like you.

In these two it is clearly stated that official price for EU countries will be 249EUR. The equivalent of 249 EUR would be 355 USD (yesterday’s euro/USD currency exchange rate)

It has nothing to do with VAT, really 355 USD is the price with no VAT added.

Teddy

8

I’m confused too. I ordered for $299 (Trinity) but after receiving a receipt and confirmation email I have now been informed the price has gone up. As far as I can tell the retailer should honour the price that was agreed at the time of sale (according to UK law at least!)…

Will vismasters also be charging EU customers extra above the price published on their website?

9

Maybe Im not reading this right… theres no real explanation as to why you are penalising EU customers. By your own admition you know that 249 EUR is not $300.

Why not simply charge eveyone the same thing - theres no product to ship, theres no actual manafacturing costs (other than the dongle… Which I had to pay for when other users didnt), why not simply charge eveyone $300-$350, but find a price and stick to it.

I appreciatethe fantastic value that Vray has been over the years, I would even be happy to pay for it again if that payment was fair, But when its so obviosly unfair people get upset.

10

Iv posted this twice because there are two threads about the same thing…

Well, Iv just heard back about my RT Asgvis order. Turns out its NOT Chaos Groups policy to sell RT to me at the same rate as the rest of the non EU world - other than simple discrimation I really cant think why Chaos Group would do this, Iv asked for an explanation but no one seems willing to talk about it.

Even though Vlado said he didnt care were we got our copys of VrayRT somone at Chaos group clearly does.

Also..I dont really want to deal with BlueGFX, does anyone know of any other uk based resellers?

11

Please see my reply in the other thread.

Best regards,
Vlado

12

I’d also like to know the score on these points…

13

clarification

Dear all,

When prices were set up those were the same in EUR and USD.

Because of the currency rate EUR/USD they differ now.

You understand that we can not correct prices every day, depending on the daily currency exchange rate.

Teddy
Sales Team

14

my problem is not with the price - well, not with the exchange rate, I actualy think the price is very good (both US/Euro), and knowing CG ill get plenty of use out of it before the next pay for update. My problem is CG not not allowing me to buy from the States to save myself money.

15

right…

i think the issue is another one: european dealers complaining. price fixing.
it’ not uncommon, it’s the same with autodesk, etc.
but i’d prefer a honest answer.

16

Price Differences

We all know that it’s difficult to make everyone happy, at least those of us who have to deal with customers. Some gripes are legitimate, some less so and Chaos is trying to deal with all of them.

While most of the posts in this thread have centered around “make it cheaper for Europe”, I have been been pressing Chaos over the need to “make it cheaper for the emerging economies”.

I used to have a company in Germany until 2002 - a long time ago by most standards. The average programmers made between 3000 and 3500 Euros a month. The good ones made a lot more. After Germany, I moved to Spain. There, I ran a few restaurants in Majorca. A waiter clear (take home) a minimum of 1500 Euros after taxes.

Cut. Change of scenery…

I now live in Costa Rica, which is probably the Latin American country with the highest wage structure. An excellent programmer clears around $800 a month. An average one between $400 and $500. An average 3D artist clears around $500 and $600. A very good one will make up to $750 a month. To complete the picture, a waiter makes around $300.

The economic structures of Latin American countries, as with most emerging economies, are simply different. Recently, we did a (monster) project for a developer. He had a written offer from renderings.com for $60.000. The only way for us to get the contract was to stay under $20.000, which we did and we got the contract.

For emerging countries, the current Chaos price structure is too high relative to the local economies. For Europe, the current prices are relatively cheap.

Life is full of such disparities and there are usually valid reasons for that.

For example, why are German cars cheaper in Belgium than they are in Germany, even though those cars are brought in from Germany? Why does the European Union force Costa Rica to grow bananas that look like those grown in the Canary Island befoe they can export them to Europe? (No, I’m not making this up)

Fact is that if Chaos expects to really penetrate the emerging markets, they will have to have different prices for the various parts of the world. If they cannot do that, the V-Ray market penetration will only consist of crack versions.

I am not sure that all issues have been carefully thought out by Chaos - in fact, I’m pretty sure they haven’t - and I still have reservations about some of them. But, I can only agree with the goal of adjusting prices to the targeted economies.

In comparison, at current rates, it would cost the average 3D artist in Costa Rica more than a full month’s wage to buy a V-Ray license. In most of Western Europe, it would amount to less than 40%. Although RT is cheaper, the principle is the same.

In real terms (in terms of bread and butter), V-Ray RT, though priced lower here, is effectively much more expensive than in Europe. An unemployed German laborer has a higher monthly paycheck than someone working two jobs in Costa Rica.

Microsoft does it. IBM does it. Dell and HP do it. Autodesk does it. Why should VRay not be allowed to do it?

At current rates, 249 Euros are $346.91. That’s a $48 “penalty” over the $299, roughly 35 Euros. Peanuts, one would be tempted to say… Skip a visit to the movies once and you’ve saved that much. Or take the bus/train to work one week and you’ll have saved twice that much.

In the end, though, there are three things that need to be remembered.

(1) Chaos owns the product and they have the right to establish policies for the benefit of their company. We all do it with our products, Why shouldn’t V-Ray be able to do so?

(2) While a lot of folks are complaining over the 35 Euro difference for V-Ray RT, I haven’t read a single complaint about Max 2010 costing $2500 in most emerging economies while it costs $3600 elsewhere. Why is it okay for Autodesk to do that but not Chaos Software?

(3) Why is it okay for Rebus to charge almost 3 times as much as we do for render farm services? All the while, we pay more for computers and electricity than they do. If we tried to charge more, our clients would say: “But you are in Costa Rica, you’re supposed to charge a lot less…”

To close this post, I would enjoin all of us to count our blessings. However few they may seem to be, one can be sure others, somewhere, are worse off.

(Added: I forgot to mention that it costs us, on average, $30 to $40 more to ship dongles than within Europe. So the final price difference is not so great after all)

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com

17

A very nice story, but in my book hour pricing is set by cost of living, hardware, software. etc. and not the other way around: “This is the price MY clients can pay, so everything else should fit into that bill”. In this global economy having a service that can be delivered by the internet, I think companies in countries with a low standard of living already have the “advantage” in offering lower pricing and will have all the means to find those clients with the bigger pockets. They may have to work harder to buy those expensive products, but then they just have to raise their prices a little bit more. This consequently leads to evening the global playing field in the next few decades. Furthermore I would like to hear the specific criteria you will handle setting a specific price for specific people!

18

Trick,

How I wish that your theory were true! It would make none happier than me, honestly.

The problem with your theory is that clients who go to emerging economies for services go there expecting to pay less. And we are at a disadvantage because of the erroneous assumption that 3rd World is a synonym for lesser quality. So, while some clients may have big pockets, believe me, they do not come to fill ours. When dealing with economic realities, one seldom finds that level of altruism.

I can buy a Coke in most vending machines here for less than 50 cents. Is Coca-Cola out of their mind? Why would they do that? My guess is that they have chosen to have prices pegged to the local economy rather than sell… nothing. If you really think about it, it makes sense.

On the one hand, you disagree with me. At the same time, however, you unknowingly agree with me.

In general, V-Ray and V-Ray RT are not expensive products when compared to their competition. Several factors will play a role. One of them is certainly that as the Bulgarian plays catchup with the rest of Europe, they are able to produce cheaper than if they were located in London or Manhattan. Yet, I don’t see anyone volunteering to pay more for V-Ray than the asking price. So, on the one hand it’s okay to save money on a product coming from an emerging economy but it’s not okay for emerging economies to pay a commensurate price. I would say it’s a “want my cake and eat it too” syndrome.

You should also consider that your average, established US or European reseller has access to a much wider market. By virtue of their sales, they can attain higher discounts and special deals. Costa Rica has a population of around 4.5 million. How can sales reach the same levels as the US or Europe?

There is not question that Chaos’ price policy is correct, economically speaking. Autodesk, Microsoft, HP, Dell and many others share that view.

I can understand that one may want to save 30 Euros. This saving, however, is only a perceived one, because if emerging economies didn’t pay less and everyone would pay the same, there would be no saving to be had. Who would that help? Why should it pain you that others, in other countries, would pay 30 Euros less than you?

Late last year, at a government sponsored 3D conference in Bogotá, Colombia, the question of V-Ray licenses came up. None of the attendees had one and none planned on buying one anytime soon. The reason: too expensive. All were using V-Ray cracks. And those were Colombia’s TOP 20… If your “big pockets” theory panned out, one would have to ask why they can’t afford it?

As I said in my previous post, I do not agree with all of Chaos’ policies, but this one, pun intended, is right on the money…

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com

19

It’s not a theory, it’s just based on some of my experiences. I know a real lot of companies in emerging economies that are doing very well. One of the early adapters (early 90’s) in Colombia/Bogota, I think Vortex3D, actually did pretty well, although he/they may have left for another country. But if you are really talented and motivated this should not be a problem. The thing is that if you would offer products for much lower prices in these countries I would be an idiot if I did not outsource, and this would lead eventually again to much higher prices for the software since nobody in the more developed countries would buy the more expensive variants anymore :wink:

BTW: this is not about 30 euro :wink:

20

Trick,

You’re right, it’s not about 30 Euros. I feel it’s about the right of a company to freely sell it’s products, at prices they feel are competitive.

You have that right. I have that right. Chaos has that right. You have, as I do, the right not to buy. But it helps no one to raise prices in certain parts of the world, who can least afford, so that some customers in Europe will feel better. If Chaos were the only company doing so, one could question the validity of the practice. But regional pricing is so common among international players, I doubt it will ever go away.

Besides, it just makes sense. Why should I not sell anything in, say, Ecuador or Uruguay if I can achieve some success by lowering prices in those countries?

You don’t have to leave the comfort of your own country to see that such practices exist at all levels. Supermarkets in the same neighborhood may sell the same products at different prices.

When they do that, it’s called being competitive.

I say we let Chaos be competitive.

Best,
Bob Keen
remote-render.com