Intel i9 or Ryzen?

[sean_brown]

So I built a new Intel 12900k build this time and its now happening there when I uninstall MS Teams. Now I had a previous Intel build that I did not see this happening and the difference in that build was it being on the z690 chipset with DDR5 memory where as now its the B660 chipset with DDR4. The current one, and the AMD both are using the same DDR4 memory. So maybe its the memory. I haven't changed any settings for the memory in the bios. Maybe there is something I need to change? I just ordered a different brand of DDR4 thats slightly faster.

[sean_brown]

Ive made a bit of a breakthrough. I decided to install the latest ISO of Windows 11 on my 5 year old ITX 8th Gen Intel/1080ti computer. All separate hardware from the new build. And guess what, the issue happens after I uninstall MS Teams. So I think its safe to say it was never my new hardware and its a software issue with the latest ISO of Win 10 & 11 and with Vray Benchmark. I dont know if Vray in Maya is affected yet.

Now the issue never happened on the original install of Windows 11 of this 8th gen ITX build. Here's the thing. Originally it had Windows 10 from like 5 years ago before MS Teams came with Windows and I just kept it updated. I then ran the free Windows 11 upgrade via the net. Now because thats how Windows 11 got on there, MS Teams never touched it. Its only when I install the latest MS ISO of Win 11 that Teams gets on there and once removed, it cripples Cuda and RTX Benchmarks. It cripples my 1080ti more so. From about 650 vpaths down to around 200.

So these are my steps to creating the issue. And this is a concern because I have caught it happening randomly after the computer has been on over an hour. Just after a reboot is a sure thing.

1. install windows 11 from usb using made with the Microsoft media creator tool
2. install Intel chip set drivers and IO drivers. Or AMD chip set drivers
3. installed NVIDIA 512.59 Studio drivers
4. save Vray benchmark to the Desktop and run Vray benchmark once so it can create, what I assume to be, cache.
5. reboot and run it one more time to make sure its running normal
6. then uninstall MS Teams and reboot
7. the moment you hit the desktop, run Vray benchmark on your desktop and see if your score gets cut almost in half. If so, welcome to the club. Membership fees are due once a month.

If anyone wants to test this, I use Macrium Reflect Free to image my drive to back it up and restore it after testing. Its free and works amazingly well.

Im too tired to reconfirm this right now but I believe using the Nvidia driver right after 512.59 caused this as well as the Microsoft Cumulative update i mention in a previous post. So multiple points of failure discovered so far.

Update:

ok, so here's an interesting discovery. so I uninstalled Teams and it crippled Cuda benchmarks. And reinstalling it from the MS Store doesn't fix it. But if I create a new user account, Teams will be there and if I reboot into the new account, problem solved but just for that account. the original account is still crippled. Another discovery is that you dont event need to uninstall Teams. If you just quit Teams from the task tray icon, then Cuda benchmarks are crippled. wut.

[Muhammed_Hamed]

I really appreciate all your effort Sean, we will talk with Nvidia this week about this, and have them investigate it
I will install windows 11 on one of my machines then report back soon, we need to be reproduce it on our hardware first

I would still love to take a look at your setup via remote desktop, my colleagues will reach out to you soon.
Saturday is not a working day, hence I couldn't get in touch sooner

Best,
Muhammed

[Muhammed_Hamed]

You got unlucky hitting this bug, your AMD build was fine and more than fine. Either way we will investigate and report back soon, will have Nvidia look into this next

[sean_brown]

Muhammed_Hamed I can now replicate the issue if I simply disable Teams in Windows Startup through the Task Manager. After a reboot it happens. If it re-enable it and reboot, problem gone.

If I disable Teams, which will cause the problem, but then roll back my Nvidia drivers to version 472.47, problem solved. Any driver above that and the problem will return while Teams is disabled.

Please confirm you can replicate this as soon as you can, tomorrow possibly, because my return window for hardware exchange is closing very soon. I just need to know its not the new hardware Ive purchased. It’s very stressful worried I might be stuck with defective hardware.

Thanks

[Muhammed_Hamed]

I'm on this now, it is just that we are close to the final release of V6.0 and there are so many tasks
I will install a new hard drive on my machine to test this, will report back in a few hours

Best,
Muhammed

[sean_brown]

I'm on this now, it is just that we are close to the final release of V6.0 and there are so many tasks
I will install a new hard drive on my machine to test this, will report back in a few hours

Best,
Muhammed

Thank you Muhammed_Hamed , I really appreciate it.

[Muhammed_Hamed]

I didn't even need to uninstall Teams

On the left is a new install of windows 11 on a second NVMe, using a new downloaded ISO file like what you wrote above. On the right is my main hard drive and OS, same drivers and same settings
This only affects the GPUs that you connect to your monitors, I have another 3090 on this machine which performed fine

I will talk to Nvidia about this ASAP, thanks again for your help.

FYI we have chased this performance bug since February, reproduced with other means and reported to Nvidia as well. But with this new windows 11 drivers, it is happens 100% of the times.

Have a nice day!

Best,
Muhammed

[sean_brown]

Muhammed_Hamed Hi, thank you for taking the time today during a major release.

You may be experiencing it without uninstalling Teams because you were on the Nvidia 516.59 driver and not 512.59. If you recall in a previous post I thought it was solved when I took your advice and rolled back to 512.59 from 516.59. When I did that everything was fine again. It was only then when I uninstalled Teams that it was not fine again. So as of now. If you are on 512.59 with Teams originally still installed and to not install the specific optional cumulative update i previously mention, it will be fine. That is the current work around. The other work around is to roll way back to Nvidia driver 472.47. But if you uninstall/disabled Teams or uninstall and manually install it again from the MS store the bug occurs on any 5xx.xx driver. Yesterday I started building custom Windows 11 ISO’s using NTLite. If I strip Teams out of the install and it never even touches the system then problem still occurs.

But there is some other solution we are not seeing. As you said your other original install is working fine. Like my old ITX built is fine. No teams. All updates including 516 Nvidia drivers and it’s fine. That’s what I’ve been trying to figure out. What makes them different and immune to this issue. I hope your team could maybe find that out if Nvidia doesn’t solve this in a timely manner because that would an even better solution than the work around I mention above.

Thank you again for your efforts.

[Muhammed_Hamed]

If I strip Teams out of the install and it never even touches the system then problem still occurs.

I'm not sure what this is about, it is very odd. I will add to Nvidia's notes as well

I can verify all what you wrote about drivers, indeed I'm using 516.59 on the new OS drive
I don't know how my original setup on a second drive is working fine, with both 516.59 and 512.59, we will follow along with Nvidia

Best,
Muhammed

[Muhammed_Hamed]

Now that you know your hardware is fine, are you gonna stick with Intel or AMD?

[sean_brown]

Now that you know your hardware is fine, are you gonna stick with Intel or AMD?

That is my current dilemma. Here are the pros and cons for each that I’m debating over.

AMD

Pros:

1. faster multi cpu performance for rendering and simulations (even tho i don’t simulate much and I RTX render usually)
2. cooler temps. Even in Cinebench it’s tops out at 74c which is fantastic.

Cons:

1. end of life platform and will not be usable for the next chip so all new hardware will be needed.
2. Windows not as snappy as on Intel from my observations.
3. I haven’t tested this yet but may not be as fast in Maya for the interface and modeling and playback due to lower single core performance. Need to test.
4. Idle temps nearly twice as high at around 53c

Intel

Pros

1. faster single core performance for gaming which I do do but I don’t see it being a significant advantage. Also Windows. Possibly in the Maya environment. Need to test.
2. Hardware will not be obsolete and the next chip will be compatible.
3. idle temps nearly half at 23c due to efficiency cores.

Cons

1. the temps. Cinebench hits 100c with the 12900k but vray benchmark does not and only hits 80c. So i may never hit those temps anyways since I don’t use C4D. If I did use any app in the future I would need to undervolt by .05 which drops the temps from 100c to 83c in C23 or cap the long duration power draw to about 220 watts but again I don’t plan to use software that stresses the cpu this much so it’s a non issue for me currently.
2. worse multi cpu performance. Vray score on Intel was 16000. Vray score on AMD was 19000. So Im assuming Intel is a bit slower in simulations. I sure love making weird sims for fun in my spare time with Phoenix like stacking two Porsches from Cosmos and then pouring milk all over them or flooding them in a turbulent ocean sim.

I do also rely on Adobe Lightroom and photoshop for my photography and Lightroom can be a dog with 10s of thousands of photos so the Intel advantage there is something that consider as well.

it’s all a very fine line balancing act. That’s why it’s taken me time to decide. But the point that gets me the most is that I can just drop a Intel 13th cpu right in with minimal cost. I think that’s the elephant in the room for me. If I could do the same for the next Ryzen, my decision would be whole lot easier and go just go with AMD.

Still a tough choice.

Would you know which cpu does Phoenix simulations faster?

[Muhammed_Hamed]

[/LIST]Cons:[LIST=1][*]end of life platform and will not be usable for the next chip so all new hardware will be needed.[*]Windows not as snappy as on Intel from my observations.[*]I haven’t tested this yet but may not be as fast in Maya for the interface and modeling and playback due to lower single core performance. Need to test.[*]Idle temps nearly twice as high at around 53c

Hey Sean,

>> Even though it is the end of life for this platform, it is very stable and has been solid in production for a long time. My 5950X that I bought earlier this year should last me 3-4 more years
>>Snappier windows, this here I didn't realize in my testing. While the 12900k has an impressive single-threaded performance, the 5950X is also great at that.. you will need to measure the differences scientifically to tell , at least in my testing
>>shouldn't be much of a difference in Maya either, the 5950x has very good single threaded performance
>> High idle temps are normal for AMD 5000, 50 degrees is really nothing. The Intel machine will consume a lot more wattage on average

The cons for Intel has been a deal breaker for me, I talked about this in my first reply here. stability alone is one hot topic on Alder lake until now

Best,
Muhammed

[sean_brown]

Hey Sean,

>> Even though it is the end of life for this platform, it is very stable and has been solid in production for a long time. My 5950X that I bought earlier this year should last me 3-4 more years
>>Snappier windows, this here I didn't realize in my testing. While the 12900k has an impressive single-threaded performance, the 5950X is also great at that.. you will need to measure the differences scientifically to tell , at least in my testing
>>shouldn't be much of a difference in Maya either, the 5950x has very good single threaded performance
>> High idle temps are normal for AMD 5000, 50 degrees is really nothing. The Intel machine will consume a lot more wattage on average

The cons for Intel has been a deal breaker for me, I talked about this in my first reply here. stability alone is one hot topic on Alder lake until now

Best,
Muhammed

Hi @Muhammed_Hamed

Today I looked into Alder Lake being an unstable cpu and from what I can tell a lot of it had to do with DDR5 and people using XMP profiles since DDR5 is not fully mature yet. I do know there were issues with windows 10 not understanding how to schedule the e and p cores but that is not in issue with windows 11. In digging around I couldn’t find anything showing Alder Lake being unstable with DDR5 and XMP disabled or on DDR4. Do you by any chances have any other sources as I agree instability would be a deal breaker for me as well.

Do you know how Phoenix simulations in Maya or Max perform between the 5950x and the 12900K? Is it optimized for single or multi thread at the moment? Could you make a sample scene on your AMD system and time it do see how many frames it can simulate withing 30 seconds and then send it to me and i can time it on the Intel? Something simple like a basic sphere emitting the honey sim. I use Maya but I have access to 3D Max as well.

Thanks

[sean_brown]

Muhammed_Hamed Hi, I have decided to go with the 5950x based on stability.

I also wanted to go back to windows 10 to further improve stability but vray RTX benchmarks are crippled on fresh current windows 10 installs because Windows 10 doesn’t come with MS Teams. And installing afterwards will not fix it. I did look at the settings for MS Teams and it actually has an option to enable or disable GPU hardware acceleration. Very interesting. I hope it gets resolved.

are you able to tell if this bug affects vray when rendering in Maya or is it only the benchmark app?