Creative Control

[JezUK]

Bobby, I think you'd be surprised. There are people learning 3DS Max all the time, totally from scratch - and they have hope and dreams. I do too (for them) as there's always work out there. One guy I know, doesn't even use GI (doesn't even know what it is) and he gets tons of work (cos he is great at marketing)!.

I know another person, 59 years old, has a great job but too stressful, loves what I do and really wants to get into it, and is determined - starting from the very beginning...

Slapping on textures.... there's room in this great community for all sorts, all levels, it's not just for the world class types...

[andybot_cg]

Is there even a market for building a model and slapping textures on it?

Yes. I do this all the time for architects and builders I have years-long relationships with. Sometimes I get to do a jazzy marketing rendering, but a lot of times it's to help a client by providing some real bread and butter 3D viz.

[glorybound]

Is there even a market for building a model and slapping textures on it? I mean, there are very few architects that can’t do this in-house today. I came to V-Ray 10 years ago because I saw an end to the 3D draftsman as a service. I knew that if I wanted to continue I had to add more value, value most draftsman couldn’t bring, or didn’t car to bring, hence studying everything I could on art and color theory, and photography. Every rendering I was seeing coming from a draftsman was an isometric 15’ off the ground. When a client tells me to raise the camera that high off the ground, and put the sun behind the camera, my spider sensor goes off and I get a migraine.

I think I need to retool my website. Who here works for a creative agency? Someone here, who I send work to has recently started posting things on social media, using words like “creative agency”. Maybe he gets it... I’ll reach out to him. I don’t see him here anymore .

Things are making sense. I have a underemployed friend who has his degree in graphic design. Maybe add some services like brochures and partnering with him. Hire a copyright and BAM! A creative agency.

[andybot_cg]

Also - you can build some really key relationships if you approach projects with a bit of humility. This whole thing about telling clients they're making poor decisions is certainly one way to constantly be looking for new clientele.

[andybot_cg]

Wait, are you looking not to be bored, or to get paid. Sorry, but the rest of the world will occasionally have very boring projects, but they pay.

I think you might be relying too much on legalistic types of "but it's in the contract" methods of sorting clients, when what I'm talking about is something a little softer and more conditional. I.e. - I don't like a project, I will tell the client it will cost twice what I usually charge, and I can't start on it for 3 weeks. If they still bite, then as long as I get a reasonable deposit, I could care less how boring it is. I'm doing it on my terms.

[rusteberg]

Ho. Lee. Phuq.

How do you tell a client that they have made so many changes and poor decisions you are bored and have little interest in the project anymore?

Quite simply..... You don't.

[glorybound]

I totally agree and that is where the prequalifying might be the key. There is nothing worse than working on something that you can’t wake up too and be excited to get working on. How do you tell a client that they have made so many changes and poor decisions you are bored and have little interest in the project anymore? I send a lot of projects other places because I’m not interested, I just need to get better at finding even better clients. Again, I have red flag words that have become golden and I think I’m going to concentrate on questions to ask that’ll reveal personalities more. I have this passion for Psychology so two of my interest combined might be fun

[flino2004]

Bobby, the point of this topic is that you have to know what your role is per job. Sometimes you are going to be a 3D drafter( non and 3D artist) or a 3D artist, or an art director, etc., something all of them. Your client decides what they want, and you decide to accept the job with their conditions or your conditions.

The budget of the project defines many things...some people want the cheap option, others want the more realistic option; Clients with more budget want a realistic, eye candy, lifestyle, branding, emotions, etc. per rendering....few people or companies can put all this together. In order to do it efficiently they require full creativity control of the project, and it cost 3x-5x times or more than your fee/rate.

[rusteberg]

I get people often who want to know what I charge because they want to know what they should charge.

Exactly my point above.

[glorybound]

What actually is your point? You must have a lot of time on your hands to go through my post and cherry-pick things. I am asking questions in a group of my peers. I am not pretending to be a potential client to try to get prices. I think I am going to reach out to Chaos and ask them to put a forum monitor badge on your profile. If you are not a forum monitor, then you are just a troll. Please, stop responding to my posts if you don't want to be helpful.

Again, it is about qualifying leads. I get between four and six leads a day and I try to focus on things that are important. I have a lead form that goes into my client management system. I get people often who want to know what I charge because they want to know what they should charge. I delete that as a lead and I ask them to email me directly and I am always glad to help in any way I can. Someone pretending to be a client isn't going to get any of my attention.

[rusteberg]

Red flags that this isn't a real client and is probably someone wanting to know what they should charge.

[glorybound]

I think that is the key; make the process obvious. It is on my website, and I point all clients to that page before we start. It is also in my contract, which they sign. I am thinking about them having to check a box after each contract line item before signing the bottom. I want to make it easy for them, but I also don't want these things to continue. I think nomenclature might be a key here, too. I might start to call revisions (if I even allow them) a punch list. Revisions will be called a change order. I have read enough about studios not allowing revisions. If the studio makes a mistake, yes, it'll be fixed, but you don't get revisions.

[andybot_cg]

Entertaining to read this thread, thanks Bobby! What I saw was that you didn't like the advice and responses people were giving you so you got pissy. Sometimes we have shitty clients who want to micromanage. Personally, I put enough barriers up front in my client process that I don't get to that point.

[glorybound]

Good advice, thank you. People have to learn that they can keep scrolling if they don't like what is being discussed.

Last night I talked to a successful architectural photographer friend of mine. He gets paid between 3-5+ thousand for a house, and he can shoot most in 1-2 days. He is busy year-round and is in a lot of magazines. I asked him his secrete, and he said that he is selective in who he takes on as a client. He prequalifies all of them, and if he senses ego, he'll pass. Words like "easy" and "fast." are red flags. If the first thing they ask is the price, that is also a red flag, which I thought was interesting. He doesn't take projects that he doesn't think will be successful.

A couple of architect friends of mine rolled their eyes at the mention of change requests. I learned a few good things. Changes, that is why they make tracing paper. Both said that they do a quick sketch, no matter how crude, over their drawings before making any changes. Usually, that is enough to convince their client that the change isn't needed. If there is a change, there is a cost. Revisions should be changed to punch list, which most in the construction industry understand. A punch list is to correct anything flawed (usually minor things). Change orders are revisions and have a cost.

That is a little off track, but I thought it was interesting.

Anyway, onward and upward!

[M.Max]

A glossary of topics covered today in your therapy session:

loool
I personally don't mind any of these :P, we are in the off-topic section, after all,
it is always interesting to read about what other artists dealing with, although I don't participate much and I like listening.
back to the original topic, I personally faced this many times, and usually-when all my tries fail- I just do what my client wants then say I apologize for taking future work from the same client.
I know I might be lucky to be able to do that, so this is just what I do and it is not actual advice.
To avoid that from the beginning I learned to do a conversation with the clients to show them how the process usually works and discuss the creative control that I want to have in front and so far most of them appreciate that.