Revisions

[glorybound]

If you do this as a business and allow revisions, what is your protocol? I let two gray-scale revisions and two-color revisions. The grayscale isn't to refine the design; it is to verify that I modeled things accurately. Technically, there shouldn't be any comments in grayscale. The color is the same thing, but if you give someone an option to comment, they will, and believe me, they do. So my question is if a comment wasn't made in one revision, do you allow it to pop up on the next. I have clients make comments on the final proof, which wasn't mentioned in any previous revisions. I have a client today who received her last proof and is making comments about roads, sidewalks, colors, materials... as if she passed it off to someone else, and they make their comments. Do you have disclaimers? Just curious how everyone else handles this.

[fixeighted]

Generally it's a nightmare.

I can't be arsed to do grayscales, as people just don't get it in general....they need to see full (ish) renders to get the picture, so to speak.
I reckon you're better off doing low res watermarked full colours as it may ease the pain.

Of course, if they are only at the 11th hour making changes to already approved generalities then maybe just say that's fine but it'll cost more to update based on
iterative changes they make amongst them all.
They will likely say that it's just fine as it is

[glorybound]

I agree. Once they find out it'll cost them, they'll be content with what they have. it is funny how people work.

I do grayscales to avoid headaches. If they see their house and make significant changes, I don't have to deal with much. This way, if they do make changes, I can go back to the approved grayscale and tell them that it'll be per hour.. My grayscale doesn't include the environment, site, or landscape; it is just for the structure. I had a guy last week send me updated CAD drawings with significant changes, and I quoted him those changes. My contract is clear, which he didn't read before he signed. He said, "that is stupid; how am I supposed to know if I like the design before I see it!". I explained that it is less expensive to change it in my model than in the field, but there is an associated fee either way.

A couple of years ago, I heard a guy say that he doesn't allow revisions. Instead, he argued that if he gets the right information, it'll be correct in his rendering?

I am thinking about allowing one revision. If I give them 100 revisions, they'll make new comments every time. One revision means that they'll get everyone who needs to look at it onboard. So I set the two revision rule when I had a project a decade ago, and the person kept making comments about a 1/2 dozen iterations, and when all was said and done, he said that he'll now send it to his team for comments.

The key is communication, and unfortunately, a contract is a poor way to communicate. First, you'll be hard-pressed to enforce an agreement. A Lawyer won't even consider a case unless he makes a ton of money. One lawyer told me that nobody cares about an out-of-state judgment, so walk away and make it a lesson learned. Second, I am thinking of an easy to look at infographic. I'll share if I do something.

[fixeighted]

That infographic idea is not bad...could actually work in a 'picture paints a 1000 words' kind of way

[dean_dmoo]

He said, "that is stupid; how am I supposed to know if I like the design before I see it!".

Just communicate that you aren't part of their design team, if they want to have a design process that is fine but is charged per hour. Stated revisions in the contract are archviz revisions, not design revisions.

Once they know that we find that clients make sure, mostly, that they have their design finalized as much as possible before sending it off to be rendered.

We don't bother with grey scale either, just seems pointless. In your case a house isn't just geometry and correct or not correct, it's also how materials / colours look together. We would add materials to the building as well before getting the signoff. Also makes it easier to identify 3d revisions or design revisions.

[glorybound]

I also use grayscale to allow me to do more work. For example, when I am waiting on grayscale comments, which is the start of the process, I am finishing up the color on another, the end of the process. I started grayscale proofs because often, after hours, if not days, on a building, the building would change, and the site would be scrapped. I hate cutting into geometry; MAX gets wonky.

I like "Just communicate that you aren't part of their design team, if they want to have a design process that is fine but is charged per hour. Stated revisions in the contract are archviz revisions, not design revisions."

[fixeighted]

My friend had a visualisation business for years...decades in fact. He made an absolute fortune out of it.
His clients needed to know that what they were asking for was what they actually wanted because...it was all pre-cgi...they were all watercolours!
He had a team to pay and so if there were revisions then it was basically a new painting, for the most part.
He rarely had any issues.

Clients have it very easy these days of course, though there is a problem - it seems that the easier it (generally cgi) gets, the lazier they become and the more
demanding, regardless of their errors, as they figure it can (everybody sing!) all be done 'in post' (or insert simile)

I completely agree about the '...design team...' aspect. It's a tough one to sell.
'Do more for less' seems to be the sad state...

[glorybound]

The only way we can make money today is to try to limit the extra work that we have to do, so we can do more work. We can't get pulled down into a black hole. Since covid, I have been charging for every extra, when I used to give it away. If I had employees, I would probably charge my clients double what I pay them. I think of myself as an hourly employee that I have to pay. I have benefits.... just like an employee would have. We have to show ourselves the same respect that we would offer an employee.

Communication is the key.

[glorybound]

I used this, or something more refined, three times already

Just communicate that you aren't part of their design team, if they want to have a design process that is fine but is charged per hour. Stated revisions in the contract are archviz revisions, not design revisions

This particular client signed at the end of January and I sent the first grayscale at the beginning of February. I didn't hear back from him until late last week. He emailed me today asking about when he is going to get his updates. Really, I think! I replied nicely stating that his project will have to be rescheduled. He said this:

We used the grayscale to help us make decisions
Windows, columns, porch etc

My reply was this:

"I see that as value-added. I am not part of the design team; I charge per hour if a design process is required. Stated revisions in the contract are archviz revisions, not design revisions. I hope that this makes sense."

Basically, he sent me a new set of documents, assuming I have been idle for four months waiting for him to redesign his client's house based on the renderings that I gave him.

[OPEN_RANGE]

I have some simple language regarding revisions included in my written proposals. It says that if there is missing info regarding materials, etc, which there almost always is, that I will use my own aesthetic to fill in the blanks. Some amount of minor revisions may be accommodated but major changes to model geometry or view angles will likely require additional charges.

I always build some time into my proposal for the inevitable revisions. I will often do one pass of revisions at no extra cost. If additional iterations are required, I then explain it will likely be necessary to charge my standard hourly fee. I have had very few problems and usually don’t need to charge extra. As you say, communication is key. I can post that proposal language if you care to see it.

if I get a Revit model or sketchup model I often generate quick grayscale view studies and include them in my proposal. These are to confirm number of views and location of views, subject to tweaking by me as the scenes develop. This can save a lot of time and helps with defining scope of work. I do not send out any other progress or other images. I get the first image 100% complete and then send out. Then, most if not all of the unanswered questions, materails revisions and etc are all apparent to the client at once. That greatly helps to limit multiple revisions imo

[glorybound]

I would love to see your proposal language. My biggest fear of no revisions is, that my client sending me the wrong information. Often, my client is the middle man, so they just send me what they get. I can't tell you how often I get, "my builder send me the wrong files", or "The architect didn't update the ones I sent you". I would hate to send a finished image just to find out, I have to start over.

[OPEN_RANGE]

A subsequent set of revised plans provided after work has started is automatic extra charge. That seems self evident but maybe a sentence regarding that is a good thing to include. I do have “design changes” included in the language below.

I only recall one particular architect who has done that…several times…plus other crazy stuff. He is now the only person that I will not work for, unfortunately it took me a long time and more than a few projects to get to that point.

[FWIW) Here is part of the boiler plate included in my standard proposal:

Information needed:
Elevation, floor plan, site plan, landscape plan, roof plan and any other drawings and details that pertain to the scope of work are needed. CAD files, and/or PDF plans are used. Any existing 3D CAD models may also be used, including models made in Revit, Sketchup, ArchiCAD or other software.

Also needed are descriptions, photos or samples of colors and materials for roofing, siding, window, wood, stone type, railings and any other information necessary to the rendering(s).

For interior renderings RCP, interior elevation, lighting plan, cabinet drawings, furniture plan and any other information necessary to the renderings will be used. Descriptions, photos or samples of colors and materials for fabrics, flooring, counter tops, tile, paint colors, trim finish, window, wood, stone type, railings, furniture, fixtures and any other information necessary to the rendering(s) are needed. Cut sheets for specific furniture and fixtures may be needed.

All effort is made to represent the intended materials as closely as possible. If images or samples of materials are not available in the necessary size or quality, similar materials may be substituted.

For any elements or materials not specified I will use my own aesthetic judgment. Revisions will be done at my standard hourly rate.

Review and Revisions:
To avoid conflicting direction, one person shall be appointed to communicate review and revision comments.

Some minor revisions are anticipated. Extensive revisions including view angle changes, materials substitution and design changes may be considered work beyond scope and require additional costs.

[glorybound]

Thank you for sharing. I also have the one point of contact clause.