Revisions

[glorybound]

How many revisions do you guys give your clients? I offer two, and there is no confusion when they sign their contract or our first meeting. Every architect I work with seems to think they make the rules and get mad when they can't make more comments on a completed scene.

A client made 480 comments on four images over two iterations (already way over average). After the second iteration, I told her that I was rendering high-resolution finals and would take a day or two. She returned when I delivered the finals, saying we needed to work on lighting. I said sure, I'd unlock the images for more commenting and quote her what it'd take. She ranted about the incomplete project, and she hired me to have a completed project.

These already became a set of technical images, as if they were being used as construction drawings. I mean, in 90% of the comments, who would care? I allowed her to comment. I was pretty much hands-off and just did what she told me. I know the lighting is off, but I wouldn't dare do anything she didn't direct me to do.

At what point did an architect become more of a CAD tech and less of a designer? These are renderings and not construction drawings. Why are they so technical? This hasn't always been the case. It was the designer designed and the technical guys figured out of to make it work.

What are your thoughts?

[JuhaHo]

Based on my 32 years experience, I think the answer is in your post. I'm not going to say more. Let's put it this way English language has an advantage/disadvantage that Finnish lacks.

However, normally I work as long as it takes to make client happy. I just hope, there aren't too many disasters in a row. Actually, at the moment I'm rerendering pictures for a project that's already been paid for. In that project there's almost 300 renderings. I found by myself a detail that disturbs me - not the client. I want to be happy with my renderings as well.

I agree with that technical part. Normally client has all the necessary data in their product model. That doesn't necessarily mean, all the geometry is modeled in their CAD-model. There's always some additional modeling to do in 3DSMax. That geometry cannot be transferred to client product model due to technical reasons. We have tested this too many times.

[suzanne_doherty]

I personally never put a limit on the number of revisions.

Instead I would charge for anything outside of the original brief or design. You want to change the brick, sure, but that's chargable. You want a dusk shot now instead of day time, again no problem, but I'm gonna bill you for it.

Also, having a robust sign off procedure is key. At what stage are things approved and by who. Going back a stage because their co-worker didn't see Stage 2 means again a charge.

For me that's fair. You're never saying no, but you're clear as to how you charge. And if the client is super organised and efficient, then their cost is lower, and the project is turned around faster.

[rusteberg]

Architects are not clients. Your best bet is to place yourself and your services between owner and architect. If you continue to place your services below architect, you’ll never escape this cycle.

it’s real simple. Really really simple. Try this. Next time you get an rfp from an architect, contract directly with the owner. “But we need you to contract with us” - that’s bullshit and they know it. Send your proposal directly to owner which is hiring you as part of their soft costs. They will appreciate this because they know exactly what the extra soft costs are and where they come from vs having it all under the architects umbrella contract.

once you start contracting with owners and equity partners (larger scale projects) you’ll be amazed by a whole new world you never knew existed. you’ll find that maybe 5 of those 400 comments are needed/wanted by owner, and with time you’ll find that owners hire all kinds of architects for all kinds of projects. You’ll also be amazed at how fast you get paid by an owner vs an architect who essentially hired you as a sub. As a sub to architect you have to rely on two billing cycles instead of one - either through overhead of owner or within their monthly draw schedule.

if the owner is the intended occupant (ie custom home) then walk away or add a hefty multiplier because you’re going to be working with someone who is emotionally attached to the project.

[glorybound]

Architects are not clients. Your best bet is to place yourself and your services between owner and architect. If you continue to place your services below architect, you’ll never escape this cycle.

Well said! They seem to think you have to adopt their workflow. They scribble on something they printed out in scribble that you can not read, and scan it back into their computer. Each time they look at the image, there are new comments, never mentioned in any previous comments. You basically become their CAD monkey. It's not fun, but at least you need to get paid for the runaround. When I was a CAD tech 25 years ago, this process drove me crazy, but getting paid a salary, didn't matter much. They think they hired you to create an image to their liking until they are pleased, without paying any more than the quote.

[glorybound]

I personally never put a limit on the number of revisions.

Instead I would charge for anything outside of the original brief or design. You want to change the brick, sure, but that's chargable. You want a dusk shot now instead of day time, again no problem, but I'm gonna bill you for it.

That is basically what I am talking about. You spent hours creating a custom tile pattern, and they look at it and say something like, let's try this pattern. This guy keeps taking new site photos, I spend a day matching all of them, and then he sends me new ones. I just don't want to be the only one charging for things like this.

[glorybound]

I just hope, there aren't too many disasters in a row.

it takes one project like this to screw up weeks of other projects.

[suzanne_doherty]

That is basically what I am talking about. You spent hours creating a custom tile pattern, and they look at it and say something like, let's try this pattern. This guy keeps taking new site photos, I spend a day matching all of them, and then he sends me new ones. I just don't want to be the only one charging for things like this.

It does sound like you need to talk to your client and explain that in order for you to continue to work together that you're going to need to adjust how things are done, or the way things are billed.

Maybe your contract should be for the client to submit all final drawings, material specs, and other material needed to produce the visual. Maybe include 3 minor design changes within your quote, but have this in writing. Then state that anything beyond the original brief will be billed at $X unless agreed.

Until you have something like this in place, then they're going to take advantage of you.

[glorybound]

It does sound like you need to talk to your client and explain that in order for you to continue to work together that you're going to need to adjust how things are done, or the way things are billed.

Maybe your contract should be for the client to submit all final drawings, material specs, and other material needed to produce the visual. Maybe include 3 minor design changes within your quote, but have this in writing. Then state that anything beyond the original brief will be billed at $X unless agreed.

Until you have something like this in place, then they're going to take advantage of you.

I do have all that in writing, but who reads contracts? I hate to bring up contracts when these things come up, but I often do. it is almost like the gaslight you when you require more money for more changes. I don't know if architects are known to give away their hours, but that doesn't work for me.

[suzanne_doherty]

I do have all that in writing, but who reads contracts? I hate to bring up contracts when these things come up, but I often do. it is almost like the gaslight you when you require more money for more changes. I don't know if architects are known to give away their hours, but that doesn't work for me.

You're right, they will bill every minute on a project.

A good client will understand. You're running a business, and you can't work for free. If they don't agree, then cut them loose.

As for contacts, I'd bet they've read it. Contracts are for both you and the client. You don't have to be aggressive when talking projects, money or contracts, just be reasonable and try to make everything a win-win for both parties.

[glorybound]

It seems that clients are getting greedier and greedier with my time. This means I respect their budget, and they must respect my time. I remember working as a draftsman with good old pencils and paper; the architect would red line with a good old red pen. It pained me when the architect would get a new updated set from me and mark up new things not mentioned previously, and the circle continued. I was working per hour, so I didn't care much, but it made little to no sense to me. Lately, this is what I am seeing happen. In the second set of revisions, everything is taken care of, and they get one final look before high-resolution finals and then mark up 100 more new things. Nothing that matters, nothing to improve the image, and more importantly, nothing I did wrong. If I gave 100 revisions, they would give me another batch of 100 markups; it wouldn't matter. I guess I am just venting, but it seems to be just the architects, and it seems to be getting worse.

[suzanne_doherty]

It seems that clients are getting greedier and greedier with my time. This means I respect their budget, and they must respect my time. I remember working as a draftsman with good old pencils and paper; the architect would red line with a good old red pen. It pained me when the architect would get a new updated set from me and mark up new things not mentioned previously, and the circle continued. I was working per hour, so I didn't care much, but it made little to no sense to me. Lately, this is what I am seeing happen. In the second set of revisions, everything is taken care of, and they get one final look before high-resolution finals and then mark up 100 more new things. Nothing that matters, nothing to improve the image, and more importantly, nothing I did wrong. If I gave 100 revisions, they would give me another batch of 100 markups; it wouldn't matter. I guess I am just venting, but it seems to be just the architects, and it seems to be getting worse.

If they are design changes, then I'd be charging for that. You're there to visualize the final drawing, presumably for marketing. If it's something else, and you don't agree with it, then push back. But sometimes clients are right

[glorybound]

If they are design changes, then I'd be charging for that. You're there to visualize the final drawing, presumably for marketing. If it's something else, and you don't agree with it, then push back. But sometimes clients are right

Exactly! It is good to get confirmation . I just got off a call moving cameras back to what it was three iterations ago; it's insane! I can't spend three hours on the phone to nudge bowls on a counter and plants in corners. I think I am going only to allow one iteration so there is no confusion.

[glorybound]

I have since updated my process to allow one set of revisions for gray and one for color. People take advantage of multiple looks to add more comments, which inevitably require more commenting and an endless circle. A current client made me do this. She keeps asking for more revisions, saying I missed 1/2 of the things she has commented on, not knowing that I keep a record of all comments. I am flexible and kept making changes, and after the 4th request for more revisions, I called her on it, scheduled a Zoom call, and showed her all of her previous comments, and not one of her comments was missed. If I missed something in the first round of revisions, I will make the update free of charge. If they make a new comment, it is a given that there will be a cost associated with it. There is a place for unlimited changes per hour, but being busy year around, it screws up other scheduled projects. While researching to go freelance a decade ago, I remember reading to charge double your hourly for revisions. It is a way for clients to take the revision projects seriously and to get everyone on board early to avoid the silo process, which so many architects do (I looked at it, so now I'll pass it on to my boss).

[charles_messenger]

We work more with interior designers than we do architects, and we require a complete design intent package to be submitted before we start a project. We send 1 set of watermarked preliminary renders for the clients to approve views and lighting conditions. Changes to original design intent require change order fees (unless it's something small like changing a wall color). Having clear set boundaries and expectations for BOTH parties is essential. We sometimes include a schedule on our proposals as well that say when we will deliver preliminaries, and when any comments need to be returned by to maintain the original delivery window.

Also don't be afraid to fire a bad client. You know your value and what you can bring, and a good client will respect that and come back for future work.