Teach a pig to sing or the math challenged to use V-Ray?

[djembe]

Hello all,

I am a regular reader here, but I rarely post as I'm not a professional in the architectural or visual effects industry, but rather a hobbiest working from my home. I've owned V-Ray for a couple of years now and I've reached a critical junction. Simply put, I'm not certain that I'm clever enough to ever be able to actually use it very well.

After a great deal of effort and experimentation, purchasing & viewing both of Chris Nichol's Global Illumination DVDs, pouring over every pdf and html tutorial on V-Ray that I've come across, trying to follow the many threads here, reading the manual, etc, I feel I'm not much beyond where I started. The sheer number of permutations of settings is mind boggling. I never know when one method is appropriate over another and when a certain value is in a comfortable range or not. My results are radically inconsistent and unpredictable. Of course, I know that this is all due to my limitations, as I see the amazing results produced with V-Ray on a nearly daily basis.

I come from a traditional arts background and I'd like to think that my skills would be useful to me with 3D rendering, but it appears to me that one must possess much more of a computer science mind with natural and intuitive strengths in math to be effective at using an advanced rendering system such as V-Ray. (While I can assemble computers easily enough, I struggle with even the simplest of math concepts.)

My question is this...
In your honest estimation, can a person who's got learning disabilities in math skills ever learn to effectively use V-Ray?

(I realize that learning disabilities come in degrees, and that this post probably sounds really absurd, but please humor me. I'm interested in hearing any thoughts anyone may have on the matter.)

Thanks.

[studioDIM]

from MY point of view, dude, you're of ours
I have BIG disabilities in learning art.
Would that even it out?
In any case, trust an idiot, VRay isn't for mathematicians.
It's for people with a goal, and it does provide the tools.
One thing is that some of the skills might come out under pressure only, so by all means, try and get into the industry, where loads of that (pressure) is provided.
The "WHOLE" thing is way too big for anyone of us, i reckon(maybe, just maybe, not for Vlado/Peter ).
But set yourself a simple-ish goal, and go get it.
Vray'll take you there in no time or effort.
Think real world, you're sorted.
And, do take the time to ask "silly" questions.
All the ones done with a head(or not, really) do get an answer of sorts...
In a few words: ditch fear, get in the groove

Lele

[posterus]

well said lele.
djembe, i remember back when v-ray came out. i was just starting to really use max regularly and i remember asking in the forums on a few occasions "what is v-ray?" at the time i just couldn't grasp the idea that something else was doing the rendering. like you i struggled for awhile just to produce a decent image. eventually i found some settings that worked well each time and modified them as need. i think once you get there everything will fall into place. thats why i really like vray because for me, it usually takes very little time/effort to setup good lighting.
this may help in case you haven't read it: http://www.vrayelite.com/basic.php
also vlado posted some "universal settings" here: http://www.chaosgroup.com/forum/phpB...ic.php?t=14747
good luck,
-joe

[jacksc02]

1 + 1 = 3 right?
No maths wizz here. Just be patient it takes time, and if your not using vray in a full time job it can be hard to just do an hour or so each night.
The best thing you can do is set up a scene that you would like to render, find some references for what you want to achieve, then give the render a go, then post it up for us to have a look at then we can all help out (daforce and lele will spam the thread but thats another matter)

[RErender]

No math wizz here either.

I would recommend working with relatively simple scenes, concentrating on good shaders and mapping. Concentrate on reflections, specularity and surface properties. Good mats and mapping are at least 75% of how the finished render turns out.

Something that helps me learn how things work is to make big spins, both up and down, with the settings, helps me to see extremes when trying to learn what a specific setting is doing.

[djembe]

Lele: Thanks for the encouragement. Perhaps ironically, or at least coincidentally, I was re-watching the physcam/sun/sky tutorial videos that you recorded when I noticed the email notification of a reply to this thread. (Thanks for your effort in creating those.)

Joe: Thanks for replying and for vrayelite.com. I have indeed studied all of the tutorials there. It's a really good resource. In fact, I think I'll go over them again pretty directly.

Jacksc: Thanks. It's good to hear that you don't feel math skills are essential. Typically, the references for what I want to create are in my head and are very specific. I think that's part of my problem, I usually know pretty precisely what I'm trying to achieve. I just end up spending phenomenal amounts of time trying to "dial in" the look I'm after, but there are a lot of settings and an infinite range of values, and so I feel I lack control. (I'm just a monkey randomly trying numbers and hitting the render button.)

Eric: Thanks. Also glad to hear your opinion about the math. Fortunately my tastes in subject matter leans towards simple scenes much as you're describing.

My goals for V-Ray, and 3D graphics in general, are not typical.
I'm a painter, my primary media being egg tempera on gesso panels. Confused?

For some background, back when I first began seeing digital images created with advanced renderers with global illumination features, I was stunned by the quality of light, shadow and surface that was possible. Effects such as subsurface scattering, accurate reflections, depth of field, so on, all excited my sense of artistic wonder. I wanted these effects to be brought into my artwork. My idea has been to model, sculpt and texture my subjects and then light and render to use as preliminaries for my egg tempera paintings. (My choice of subject matter is "landscape-like" surfaces and forms with carefully articulated surfaces and lighting.) So I set out to learn how to create 3D graphics. I settled on 3ds Max and V-Ray, (later adding ZBrush and Silo). While I've got the hang of modeling, UV mapping, texturing, digital sculpting, generally setting up a scene, etc, I feel I've hit a brick wall when it comes to quality rendering.

Now, over the last several months, I've been trying nearly full time to get a grasp of V-Ray 1.5 once and for all. (I first began using V-Ray Basic 1.09 if memory serves me correctly). But my frustration with myself has reached a critical level. I feel I need to either begin making some forward progress or make a decision to abandon this approach altogether. As it is now, it is much more science than art (when in my hands) and I feel rather out of my league.

I have considered showing my works in progress here to ask for advice on rendering settings. It gets a bit tricky given my particular objectives and subject matter. Since I'm not creating architectural images, product shots, etc, but rather preliminaries for "fine art" paintings (read as "presumptuous art that very few people actually enjoy") getting feedback can be an odd proposition. I may create some test images for the specific purpose of asking for assistance however.

Thanks again for your insights.
Djembe

[unknown]

good artists make the best 3d artists, people good at maths etc make for good TD's i kinda sit in the middle, i like technical stuff, but my maths sucks, so i stick to stuff i know. Like cloth and fluids, etc but im not gonna right any solvers or code anytime soon.
vray is easy to learn, there are some good tricks, but art still rules.

one thing to remember. any images I do, or haev done have been 20% max, techi stuff, and 80% photoshop arty side, colour correctin, overlaying textures, painting in detail etc. vray will only get so far, then your art side has to make the last leap.

post some stuff its great for motivation and crits.

[Paul Oblomov]

Can't imagine, that you never posted here any images When ppl helping each other in almost realtime - it is great. So, feel free to post here smth you'd like to ask
Now, I think VRay isn't simple, but rather not-that-hard to learn. For high-end lighting and quality you need just practice. Tons of it. Hope we can help

[Neilg]

Ive got no doubt that you'll pick it up over time - I know someone in a similar position to you who just cant grasp concepts behind maths whatsoever, but he was an incredible artist - given 4 months of working with vray full time, he's got it mostly nailed. Just takes a while.

I'm from the other side, I couldnt even draw or hold a pen - the idea behind drawing was alien to me and i just couldnt understand how it was done, but conceptual maths was fine - 2 years down the line i'm suddenly finding my drawing actually makes sense and is good enough to get across what i'm trying to say.

Basically, my point is that if you spend long enough trying, even if it doesnt come naturally to you (or its a lot harder for you to learn) - you can still pick up what you need.

[DaForce]

/me
Hates maths
Not "arty"
Cant drawn for sh*t
Left handed

So given that, vray is still a very useable tool for me

This is one of the great things about this forum. You can always ask questions, about anything and there will always been a handfull of helpfull souls to get you thru it all. Learn to embrace it and love it for all that it is (well that certainly sounded less weird in my head)

[studioDIM]

When in London, i worked very very closely with traditional artists.
Sculptors and animators (pencil animators!) were aplenty.
I could tell you the hilarious moments both in the company and at the pub later on, while some of the best animators tried to pick up animation softwares.
A good dose of self-humour is required to learn something properly, and those chaps had it.
I particularly remember a jolly good director and animator (name withheld, but he's been prize winner a few times) which animated an entire shot from one camera angle.
Then came to me (of all people... odd choice indeed) and went "hey something's wrong there, come see what happened".
I honestly had tears in my eyes from laughter, and he did as well when he realised where he was going wrong.
3D is THREE DIMENSIONAL.
He simply forgot that, and his drinking character kept missing his own mouth with the bottle.
Another one, another prize winner, kept having issues with keyframes.
His visual descriptions of what would happen when he forgot a keyframe here and there were pieces of art in themselves.
Last i heard from them, they now happily married the two techniques, and are a few notches better than they were already.

This, to say that you shouldn't fear "mistakes" as they are the building blocks we all use to create something that works
And as everyone else said, do post away: we rarely, if ever eat people alive. Normally we put them to rest first (hey, joke!!!!).
Some aspects of vray CAN be very very technically approached, but that's not to say they NEED to.
*I* do most times, but that's 'cause i am no artist and make the most of what i understand, which is little indeed.

Roll on, mate!

[dellis]

Well...you could just use the unviersal vray settings. Its not the fastest solution but once you set it up as a preset....it might suffice for an "all the time" solution.

Keep at it though...and definetly ask for help when you need it....there are lots of good people around here.

[djembe]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses. Quite a supportive bunch

At any rate, since the consensus is that math skills are not inherently required to become a skilled V-Ray user, I'll try to push through my current frustrations, and I'll plan some small test projects that I can post to ask for help with render settings.

Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement.
Djembe