Touchy I know, but just How do you determine your price and what is it? Bear with me

[Morne]

Hi all

I know this is a pretty touchy subject and a lot to read so please bear with me. But the info I hope to get could be good for all us out there doing their own thing and who was never really involved with a large or even medium sized viz company. Also it could help those wanting permanent employment instead of freelancing all the time. I'll try and relate everything back to US$ as we have readers from all over the world.

Ok so a while back (about 5 years ago) I did a full exterior of a fancy house for a guy (about 4 views) and interiors of each room (about 10 views or so). This was before I knew about VRay so pretty much scanline stuff. Anyways I charged the guy about US$300 for the lot and it took me about 2 to 3 weeks, including transferring the paper plans to CAD with changes. Compared to my skills today, those were not very good visuals at all. However if I had to do something like that today (with same "bad" quality) I would probably charge US$1000 or US$1500. It doesn't really matter what I would have charged, the guy was pretty impressed with the visuals, but after he showed it to people he works with, they laughed that the had to pay US$300 for it (not because it was "bad" quality, but because it was so "expensive") Eventually I only got payed half and he wanted more changes and extra other work. Needless to say he didn't see me again.

Which brings me to my next point. I try not to deal with the "end user" for houses etc, since the home owner just doesn't want to pay for visuals. Forward a couple of years to today with VRay and "nice images" and I'm starting to think my price is way too low (even though some clients complain it is too high).

I'm wondering how you guys determine the price for your visuals (not just archviz, but for now lets use archviz as an example). I look at the entire project and then thumbsuck a price based on how complex it is and how much of a mission it will be to get a nice image. I'm thinking of changing this however and relate it to time spent. IE this "room" will take me 4 days so 4 days is 8hours X 4 days = 32hours (assuming only 8 hour day, but usaully it is about 10 to 12 and sometimes even 14 hour day) Then my price for a very simple reception or bedroom that takes about 1 to 2 days could be about US$350 so this is about US$22 an hour. Does that seem right??? US$22 seems very low per hour! Maybe I should charge per day so it works out maybe US$50 per hour or more (or should it be less?).

Then comes the more complicated things, like not a simple reception that only takes 2 days, but a huge double volume restaurant with lots of detail that maybe takes 2 weeks to complete. Should you then still charge your "hourly rate" and it works out US$1760 (US$22 per hour) for 2 weeks work or should it then be a little less per hour since you work more hours (giving a slight discount for larger projects)

Also should you charge extra per view? Or have a fixed price per view instead of per hour? I know of another company that apparently charges per view no matter how complex or simple. So for a view of a bathroom they charge the same as a view for a huge lobby or a restuarant about US$700 per view. This could be good for small things but kill you with larger projects I think.

I just wonder how some people can afford the cars they drive (saw it in another thread) and still be freelancers. Do they charge the going rate which is far higher than my price? Or are cars just cheaper in those other countries?

So to sum up what is the going rate (assuming you're fairly well versed in MAX and VRay and your images are pretty nice, like the ones you would expect from VRay) Is US$22 per hour way too low or way too high for the average sized things we usually see in image post like kitchens, bedrooms, shop interiors etc. Also should you be charging per hour, day, week, project, or per view?

Whoooheeee that was a lot to read. Your thoughts and help will be very much appreciated on this very touchy subject. If you don't want to tell the whole world your price, or what you think the price should be, then please send me a PM for my eyes only.

EDIT: HEY WAIT!!! I didn't take into account the exhange rate back then, so back then I could get more $ for my money so it was something like US$450 back then and not US$300. Apologies for this miscalculation.

[Spikeadeliv]

Filthy lucre............

The guy got a bargain for $300! In my vast experience of 3d Viz studios and freelance I have worked on projects priced at anything between £500 - £ 6000 per single image, obviously the modelling usually takes the longest time so additional views are proportionally less.
eg typical job = £1500 inc modelling and 2 views usually in 5 working days.
But that was approx 5 years ago and there was obviously someone who could do it all for £300 out of their bedroom, LOL.

[beestee]

Is US$22 per hour way too low or way too high for the average sized things we usually see in image post like kitchens, bedrooms, shop interiors etc. Also should you be charging per hour, day, week, project, or per view?

We start our entry level artists at $15 US/hr and they have no responsibility for overhead. We do high-volume commercial work, with general turn around on a full exterior project, typically 7 views or less, with a maximum deadline of 3 days for the "complex" projects. This time does not include material creation or lighting setup in most cases. This is because I personally maintain templates for the rest of our artists to use so that we have, as a group, consistent results on an expeditious timeframe. Also, with all of the templates we have, we can generally hire someone that has minimal 3D experience into the enrty level position.

Of course, our high-volume imagery is probably mediocre at best, after all our client does get what they are willing to pay for. Our largest client is very budget minded, and the first thing they question is if they can get something better for less money elsewhere, understandable though considering this economy.

The fact of it is that meeting the clients expectations regarding budget does directly translate to the final output in terms of quality. We do set our quality bar pretty high for ourselves despite these limitations, and it shows when our work is compared directly with our client's other visualization sources.

I imagine that anything under $30 US/hr may be too little if you are responsible for the overhead and your output is maximum quality.

[dlparisi]

We do high-volume commercial work, with general turn around on a full exterior project, typically 7 views or less, with a maximum deadline of 3 days for the "complex" projects.

Just curioius... how many people is this? 1, 2, 3... and what's a "complex"
project?

[beestee]

Four people now, we have been up to twelve. Our "complex" would generally refer to anything that doesn't fit the "big-box retail" stereotype to a tee...

A.K.A. not very complex at all

I think the biggest hurdle we ever face on our exteriors are multiple spans of terra-cotta roofing that wraps corners, if that gives you an idea.

[glorybound]

Price

The never ending question..... I charge $300.00 per day. Most of the stuff I do takes 4-5 days. If this is confusing to use imagine the clients who are hearing prices all over the board. 3 weeks of work for $300.00, how?

[Morne]

3 weeks of work for $300.00, how?

This was a couple of years back, and they were real junk (no gi, just one colour on wall, some furniture from an old 3ds library I had etc.) Well the exteriors didn't come out too bad - compared to the interiors.

Also that time I didn't see it as $300 for 3 weeks work, but rather like: $300, COOL!

EDIT: HEY WAIT!!! I didn't take into account the exhange rate back then, so back then I could get more $ for my money so it was something like $450 back then. Apologies for this miscalculation.
But I think the guy still got it for "free"

[Morne]

3D World Mag issue 113

I just picked up issue 113 of 3D World mag and if I read the graph correctly on page 49, then from there it seems the high level arhviz guys gets on average between about US$66 000 to US$110 000 per year. So that works out to be between about $31.25 to $52 per hour (if I assume your work day has only 8 hours and you work at least 22 days in a month)

US$52 per hour! That's scary!

[dlparisi]

Keep in mind too that that is just the salary, not including any O&P. So even for the low at $66,000 it's roughly $33/hour plus overhead costs. A ballpark figure would be doubling this to get a number to charge to clients to cover cost of software, hardware, admin time, insurance, electricity, rent, etc, etc. And that's just for the low end.

[Dschaga]

A good startingpoint for thougths on basic price strategy is always, how much a professional architecture photograph gets for ONE image. You should never be below his price, because the price is not only the image but also the right for the client to use the image.

So if in your area the normal price for an architecture Photo is ~500-600 usd, you could start thinking of how many photos a client want and multiply it with that 500-600usd + the price for modeling and interaction with the client.
If a client want more images you should stay next to the price for a architecture photography.

This is naturaly the lower end of the price, because there are other parameters which makes the final price more individual ...

anyway ..my 2c and it still works for me.

[roppin]

A friend told me that I should go as high that 20% of my tenders get turned down due to the price. Otherwise I´m to cheap. I have never realy counted on it and I´m not in the arkviz market but I keep it in mind when I set the price..

/Best
Daniel

[glyph]

very interesting comments in these posts

the 20% over could be a good guide .
I've been getting the comment " thanks for great job and very good value" so I'm sometimes too cheap..
but with damn recession one client said (today as it happens) "can I have that for 12% less - I'm expecting that from all my suppliers..." which really annoyed me

I had to prepare some quotes knowing the competiton was an architectural illustrator who charged £800 per image (traditional magic markers)
I got that one, but on later projects they went back to the illustrator as they "like the look" (in other words it's a "suggestion" rather than "this is it" , of course adding Piranesi to the mix would cost more)

I charge extra for each camera angle off a single model
- I always end up adjusting (or fixing) each view either in the model or later in Photoshop

you have to cover all your administration and emailing/meeting time too.
the more work you have and the bigger the project the more this eats into the schedule - that sounds obvious but I think its more like an exponential ratio..

[paulison]

I'm amased at some of the prices you guys are giving...

I used to work at an Architects office and there was a general rule that what the client pays should be somewhere between 2-3 times the persons salary which covours running costs and allows for a bit of profit. For a business there isnt much point doing work only to covour costs. There are constant costs associated with investing in new software and hardware so unless you follow this rule of thumb, you are never going to make enough money to grow or keep up to date. In our company, we have a set hourly rate for everyone that has been well in excess of the 2-3 times salary when we are busy...

Needless to say, our hourly rate has been pretty massive, but you have to adapt to the market and right now we are charging at around this bare minimum rate just to make sure we get enough work to survive. So basically our lowered rate would be somewhere around $100/hour for 3D work...which I would consider cheap

I think the problem with asking for too little is that the client becomes accustomed to this price and continues to ask for more. If you are going to charge a decent price then you have to take a few things into consideration....

1. You know how to do any job with minimal testing.

2. when the client wants something, you just do it...no questions asked!

3. You can get onto their job straight away and always meet the agreed deadline regardless of other crap. If you have to use the old 'technical problem' as an excuse then you should keep your rate low.

Anyway those 3 points above are a few of the requirements to doing jobs for clients and being able to charge obscene amounts. To get to that point you may need to have a good history of doing reliable work though so I guess its a tricky one!

I wouldnt price yourself too cheap unless it is temporary in order to prove yourself and get a folio together. The problem is that when you raise your rates, you basically need to find new clients as they are never happy about paying 2x more for the same thing 6 months later. That would be my next point...make sure you target marketing at who you would need as clients in the future and dont tell them about how cheap you have been doing the work up until now :P

[Morne]

So Paulison... how many new employees you say you guys are looking for?
Sign me up!

[voltron7]

interesting thread...The way I charge sensitive to the client. I don't feel bad about charging 50USD/hr. for a multimillion dollar hotel, but I might only charge 200 USD total for a smaller, easier, more frequent customer. But it always depends on the client and job, and their intended end use, so I have no magic number...