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Letter to my Client - Telling him where to stick it.

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  • Letter to my Client - Telling him where to stick it.

    I'm not used-to getting upset, but this pushed me over the edge. It starts somewhere in the middle here:

    “Place some flat burlap empty coffee bags on this portion of brick wall.” Back countertop? Please clarify where. After you reduce the soffit size there will be a slightly visible portion of wall above it (this is the extension of the same wall that the back counter is up against). We want this wall covered in brick with the burlap bags hung here, above the soffit on the wall.

    “The casework stain NEEDS to match the color of the “Churchill” sample. The color you made the casework and furniture is more of a natural stain. We need it to match the sample provided down to the darkened seams and edges in the millwork.” I’ll try my best with the darkened seams. OK

    “the chairs don’t really work.” You provided a photo with chairs in it – are they similar to the same ones that I had in prior which the customer commented on which you had me remove? Yes

    Are these renderings going to be final then since it’s the 4th round? You mentioned the last round was and I ended up spending 5 extra hours rendering out higher quality images and post-processing because of that. It was our intention to have the 3rd round be the finals, but there were too many changes that needed to be made.


    So, I start bitching to myself and making these changes - I still have no clue what he's talking about on other stuff 4 emails later, as well as what the hell he wants me to do with the "burlap bags." So I toss the owner an email:

    I’m attaching the final renderings for your coffee shop project. I will not make any additional changes beyond what I have already provided without charging typical change rate of $100/hour as well as receiving prompt payment. This project as a whole has literally been a complete financial wash. Not only has it affected my other clients, but has also impacted my personal life (I cut my Christmas break early to come home while you guys took the week off, lost a lot of sleep, and worked some weekends.) In all, I’ve spent around 75 hours on this project total which works out to be $16/hour. Factor in 1/3 taxes and that is $11/hour – not including equipment, software, and other business expenses which would knock that down to $5/hour. That also does not include the impact it has had on other clients as well. This was a complete loss.

    When you factor in those other projects, this one kicked those others to the curb and underneath the street.

    Excuse me for my wording here – but I think it is well justified. If I didn’t bring this to your attention, you’d might not realize my level of frustration regarding the situation (and please, don’t take any of this personally as it’s not a personal attack.) I’m not trying to be “difficult” – but please understand that this project was a lot more work than originally expected. Any artist would have blown a nut, unless they were truly desperate – there would also be no doubt in my mind that they are using illegal software in order to provide those 5-finger discount rates.

    I’m aware that this project has also gone well beyond your expectations as well. For future reference (whether you choose to continue to work with me or someone else), I really recommend that most of those plans and color schemes are all in order and sorted well before presentation to a 3D artist. Things really needed to be spelled out significantly better for this project – especially for the rate provided. While changes themselves may not be difficult, providing a quality rendering (the difference between a cartoon and something more realistic) is a very time-consuming process especially as a scene gets more complicated. Obviously, the more time and money you can spend – the better a project will turn out. In my situation, I’ve always been conscientious about trying to provide everyone I work with the best quality for the time and amount they are willing to spend – and often going beyond that because I have some level of pride and integrity in the work I produce.

    If it is something you will change a lot down the road, a much faster, efficient, and cheaper solution would be to use something like Sketchup for preliminaries. With most architects and interior designers I work with – we often both use it to conceptualize prior to taking things to a photorealistic level. Then they might approach a professional 3d artist afterwards. This is generally my method of development.

    You may assume that I am being “difficult.” The fact is that I work with some very high-end clients (not to brag or boast.) My point is, that I’ve worked with some of the best and it’s not easy to get that list – it’s because I know what I’m doing. And quite frankly, I’ve never encountered this amount of work including changes for such a low price. Nor have I ever had to write a letter like this. The point I’m trying to make is that I’m not just some typical artist who doesn’t know what they’re doing. There’s times I’ve communicated concern, and the flexibility didn’t seem to be there.

    I think there needs to be some consideration moving forward that after all, this is still artwork and not a simple “push of the button.” If it was an actual physical painting, you wouldn’t ask for changes. In fact, I paint and painting is a lot easier. If you had someone paint your house, then decided you didn’t like the color afterwards – you wouldn’t expect the house painter to repaint it for free. There would have to be some level of recognition of any extra work involved as well as some reimbursement. I think I’ve been fairly accommodating here.

    I’d have to say that most of the changes were not necessarily on my end, but a result of a lack of detailed and accurate information being provided which consumed the most time (even with the most recent round , I’m still left guessing 3 emails later.) When I originally mentioned that I was provided the wrong plans, I was told flat-out that I was wrong and basically got yelled at by Jim. Never mind my long-standing track record of reading plans with architects, engineers, and designers. Then the best part was that I was told to go hunt for the files through a maze myself online. It probably wasn’t the best way to approach me while I was packing – and it’s definitely not a good motivator. I wasn’t getting paid to do that research. But that sort of “employer to underling” mentality of dictating needs to stop.

    In remembering that it is artwork, you’re never going to have it 100% perfect unless you’re willing dedicate that additional time and finances. Things can always be better and it doesn’t hurt to ask – but please try to recognize the time and expertise involved in getting something 100% perfect.

    I’ve reread this email about 10x – and have deliberated deleting it. It’s been a very tough thing for me to have to write and weigh the consequences of such an action, especially in this economy. I just know that if I do delete it, that I’ll be asked to make even more changes and there will be little to no improvement over time whether it involves myself or other potential artists you may work with in the future.


    Thanks for hearing me out,

    -Charles
    Last edited by jujubee; 17-01-2010, 08:35 PM.
    LunarStudio Architectural Renderings
    HDRSource HDR & sIBL Libraries
    Lunarlog - LunarStudio and HDRSource Blog

  • #2
    Quite unexpectedly on a Sunday, I get a reply today:

    Charles,

    The other projects you have done for us you lucked out on and required minimal changes, this project has still not produced something that the customer will be happy with and If you would Complete all the changes that we have asked for before rendering out than we would be complete with this project and saved a lot of time, you still have not made any changes to the floor, and the lighting and the wall colors are still wrong and the mill work is still to light and not realistic. Please also review the bar splash as specified in previous email, it is also incorrect. By making these changes we will be done with this project. This is a business transaction so I am not going to get into personal time lost, for instance me having to handle this on a Sunday, when this should have been complete by now. we will move forward and get u a check cut when we receive the final. We realize we have asked for real CHANGES as well, and have no problem paying for 1 hour @ 100 bucks for those.

    We can discuss the scope of work before we do any more coffee shop renderings with you in the future possible with a different type of contract.
    Tim
    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

    Okay, so maybe he missed the point...:
    With the other projects, I actually expected more changes and was willing to accommodate you on them. That’s why I called and had written on several different occasions. But there is a significant workload difference between an entire coffeeshop and a kiosk. Coffeeshop I didn’t mind either – two minor revisions, not a problem. But five freaking revisions later on tight deadlines for crap money? Come on get real. It’s comparing apples to oranges on this one.

    As for personal time lost – “assuming” that I would have worked the weekend before Christmas? Then I busted my ass the following days and interrupted my schedule to try to be helpful – but was provided the “wrong” plans to begin with, then yelled at by Jim on top of it all telling me to go look for the items myself? Then, I came back early to help you out while you guys took a fucking vacation. You must really think people have nothing better to do with their lives. But I guess none of that is “your” concern either. Your empathy really shows.

    I have changed the floor to be less reflective. The wall colors are accurate to exact RGB specified per the colors (which by the way, I had to look up on the web which YOUR company should have provided) but getting washed due to the illumination bouncing around the room as specified in the email. I changed the backbar splash 4 fucking times – if it needs to be changed further than that needs to be specified/called out/drawn over precisely on my images. I’ve changed all the millwork 4 times also – I’m not sure what more you want to be done or what you are seeing wrong. Whatever you are “seeing wrong”, I am not seeing it.

    While we’re at it, do you want me to recreate the Mona Lisa by hand dot for dot and insert that into the scene too? How about a Sistine Chapel scale model interior and exterior?

    I’ve presented my changes and spent an EXTRA 2 whole days working on your scene – that’ll be an extra $1,600 (for which by the way, I’ve been kind enough not to ask you for.) Better yet, pay more for the previous revision too (add an extra day at $800.) It’s also interrupting other clients too.

    I will not consider any further revisions until I receive payment from you for the work already completed. I’m not asking for any extra money – just the amount we agreed upon originally (and even then, I’m still in the hole.) That is more than being fair. And it’s also not asking for a lot.

    I’m sincerely beginning to believe the problems you have encountered has less to do with the artists, and more to do with unrealistic expectations. This isn’t easy work, and if it was, everyone would be doing it. You’re drastically underpaying/undervaluing artists for their time, expertise, and work – and I hope you realize that some day. I don’t think you know (nor care to know) how much work is really involved. And that is unfortunate. You’ll continue looking for other artists month to month at this rate.
    You think I overreacted?
    LunarStudio Architectural Renderings
    HDRSource HDR & sIBL Libraries
    Lunarlog - LunarStudio and HDRSource Blog

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    • #3
      that was awesome sorry lol!!! don't worry man we all feel like this at times and you did the right thing by expressing yourself. He can shuv it if he doesnt understand you and at the end of the day he will come right back knocking on your door. Trust me.
      Ruben Gil
      www.spvisionz.com
      www.linkedin.com/in/s2vgroup

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      • #4
        After reading his response to your first mail i think he skipped over most parts of it.
        I know it can take hours to write such an email to a client and he doesn't even take 5 minutes of his time to read it completely.
        I would drop that client.
        Reflect, repent and reboot.
        Order shall return.

        Comment


        • #5
          Without seeing the image(s) it's hard to understand how complex a scene you have going on but in my opinion that's overreacting.. I mean did you at any point sent a polite mail explaining you need to charge extra because the project goes on and on? Sure the client would have you do as much work for free as possible - It's you're responsibility to see the project doesn't get out of hand, no?

          I don't mean to sound rude and this is nothing personal but in general I feel people in this industry bitch about their clients a little too much considering how relatively "easy" the work is and pays good. Sure, repetitive at times and frustrating but remembering the times when I was still at school my nighttime job was to clean supermarket floors by night, it paid ~7 euros per hour so ten hours crouching on the dirty floor would earn me almost the same amount of money I make in an hour sitting on my ass playing with different moods for a picture.
          Ville Kiuru
          www.flavors.me/vkiuru

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          • #6
            Sometimes you just have to let it all out, I think you did the right thing. Yes he's
            a client, but a line has to be drawn at some point on what can reasonably be
            expected of you for a given price, otherwise you can continue forever and a day
            going backwards and forwards making changes. I'm sure we've all had this at some
            time or another.

            You should not tolerate any client shouting or yelling at you, there's no need for it,
            you're not a child. I would have said to him that you're going to hang up the phone
            now and can he phone you back later when he's calmed down. By the sounds of it
            you did all you could for this client, even with the lack of information provided by
            them, so yes you did right.

            Comment


            • #7
              I wonder if over reacting is worth it in the long run.

              There was a project here once that a local company was making renders for, and they just politely told us after a couple of changes that there had been enough changes and this had to be the last, if there was anything more we wanted. We understood that and asked for the last changes and accepted it, even though we would probably have wanted more changes.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've written some sharply worded emails in my time and also managed to say something to have the client slam phone down on me (still working with him though)

                now I write the email but dont send it..
                then I cut the length in half to make it concise and force myself to remain as professional as I can manage
                then I wait some more (if possible overnight) before clicking the send button

                Client and I may disagree but I dont want them to badmouth me..
                they might walk past me down a dark alley one night..

                I usually manage to negotiate more money when the changes get silly
                My quotes include "any changes requiring amendments at any stage of work may incur additional cost. These changes will be costed and itemised to client prior to commencement of the additional work"

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                • #9
                  I'm on your team man! There is nothing more frustrating then dealing with someone that has no appreciation for time and effort let alone value. I think you did the right thing! Any job that requires you to de-value your time, more then you are comfortable with, is not worth it...and a lack of appreciation of your effort is flat out a kick in the balls. I've seen your work...you don't need this and nor will those emails limit you!
                  -----Dwayne D. Ellis-----

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by yyk
                    After reading his response to your first mail i think he skipped over most parts of it.
                    Probably. Plus, it appears he read it on his phone. It is too long (I got carried away.)
                    I could have summed it up - "I'm not doing any more slave-driving work for your crap money."

                    Originally posted by yyk
                    Without seeing the image(s) it's hard to understand how complex a scene you have going on but in my opinion that's overreacting..
                    I spent close to 70 hours on a $1200 project which by the time you include everything, works out to be $5/hour. The people working at McDonalds here make $12/hour. It wasn't terribly complex, but they kept making it complex as well as providing wrong information. I agreed to not show their work (part of our agreement) because he "didn't want competitors seeing where [he] got his renderings from." But trust me they were fairly good, especially for the price...

                    Originally posted by yyk
                    I mean did you at any point sent a polite mail explaining you need to charge extra because the project goes on and on? Sure the client would have you do as much work for free as possible - It's you're responsibility to see the project doesn't get out of hand, no?
                    I told him I needed to and he said that there was nothing he could do. At that point, I had a choice - stop working and lose future work and possible payment for the current work. A few rounds I put up with and did, but they kept sending over more and more demands.

                    Originally posted by yyk
                    I don't mean to sound rude and this is nothing personal but in general I feel people in this industry bitch about their clients a little too much considering how relatively "easy" the work is and pays good.
                    I don't think it is "easy" at all, but that depends on your responsibilities. I'm responsible for all of my websites, marketing, negotiations, meetings, finding more work, teaching myself, and pretty much all of the work itself. If you work for another company, than you might not have to see any of that. Or perhaps you're really good and lucky.

                    Also where I live, I have a lot of competition in my area from some big, well-known firms such as StudioAMD, Neoscape, Tangram, etc. That doesn't include all the freelancers throughout this country. I think a lot of that is dependent on where you live. If I lived in Western Samoa, I'd probably have that market cornered.

                    As for bitching, this is really the first time I've done this in all the years of working with people - so it's not a "common" thing on my part.

                    Originally posted by yyk
                    Sure, repetitive at times and frustrating but remembering the times when I was still at school my nighttime job was to clean supermarket floors by night, it paid ~7 euros per hour so ten hours crouching on the dirty floor would earn me almost the same amount of money I make in an hour sitting on my ass playing with different moods for a picture.
                    Well, then you made more money than I did lol.

                    Originally posted by SteveC
                    You should not tolerate any client shouting or yelling at you, there's no need for it, you're not a child.
                    It wasn't the owner yelling, but his employee telling me to go look for the architects files online (there were literally hundreds of plans because it was a mall.) But yeah. These people have a nasty habit of talking down to someone. There's no need for that. If anything, they should be kissing up. Everyone over there treats 3D work like a fast-food service that wants to be a 5-star restaurant.

                    Originally posted by SteveC
                    By the sounds of it you did all you could for this client, even with the lack of information provided by them, so yes you did right.
                    Pretty much - short of bending over and wiping their poo.

                    Originally posted by rmejia
                    I wonder if over reacting is worth it in the long run.
                    I still don't know if it was overreacting or justified. Some people just don't "get it" unless you tell them how shitty they are operating. Worth it? Eh, I feel better lol.

                    Originally posted by rmejia
                    There was a project here once that a local company was making renders for, and they just politely told us after a couple of changes that there had been enough changes and this had to be the last, if there was anything more we wanted. We understood that and asked for the last changes and accepted it, even though we would probably have wanted more changes.
                    Well, you didn't see the other emails, plans, and phone calls going back to early December. Also, if you read the emails above - you'll see that I told him I was done making changes, yet he writes back saying that I need to make more lol (the sixth round.) That's his mentality. This time he finally does offer to pay, but I don't give a shit about his money at this point cause of his prior treatment. Money's not everything, but my time is.

                    Originally posted by glyph
                    then I wait some more (if possible overnight) before clicking the send button. Client and I may disagree but I dont want them to badmouth me.. they might walk past me down a dark alley one night..
                    lol. Probably wise advice. I honestly have no regrets having sent that. They're also on the opposite side of the US. Besides, if they saw me in an alley, I'd be the one running after them.

                    Originally posted by glyph
                    I usually manage to negotiate more money when the changes get silly. My quotes include "any changes requiring amendments at any stage of work may incur additional cost. These changes will be costed and itemised to client prior to commencement of the additional work"
                    I have something similar to that but they refused to negotiate. If I stopped making changes earlier on, then that definitely would have been the end of future work with them (carrot on a stick.) I kept thinking it would get better.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    @Dellis. Thanks man. I thought I needed to say something, because these guys will go out and find someone willing to work for that money - and then they'll drive that person crazy. Then they'll repeat that all over again. It's severely undercutting our work as a whole group down. I just hope they realize that they're expecting too much for such little cash.
                    LunarStudio Architectural Renderings
                    HDRSource HDR & sIBL Libraries
                    Lunarlog - LunarStudio and HDRSource Blog

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                    • #11
                      The comment that really gets me is "you lucked out" on the other projects. Most projects I have worked on, the design is never finished. We find all the problems & missing information, point them out, and THEN they design. I think I should change my sales pitch to "we provide high quality design development images". Most people don’t like their jobs and therefore don’t try very hard. I think it’s safe to say that most folks on this forum are in this business out of the passion they have for what they do. In turn, we make extra efforts in producing quality images, being flexible to our clients, etc. Unfortunately shit flows down hill. It seems like an appropriate response to me. The client may not "change" from it as he sounds like an asshole, but at least it's off your chest.
                      Sean MacNintch

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                      • #12
                        Just received a reply back from them:
                        Charles,

                        Great e mail, real professional.

                        Make the changes that were multiple revisions back and were asked for and that we re-iterated in the last e-mail. If all the changes were made and completed accordingly with the material provided in the last e-mail we would not be talking right now. Make the changes and get paid or don't and continue to send unprofessional e-mails and you will not be paid because the project is not complete. In the last e-mail i made it very clear that I was willing to pay one extra hour, but the lighting or the colors need to be corrected. The sooner this is complete the sooner you will get a check. As of right now with your last e-mail two things are certain, you will not get paid without these corrections and you lost a customer with a pipeline of upcoming business with no intention from you of making things right.

                        Tim Langdon

                        And mine:
                        You know what is really unprofessional?
                        Threatening to not pay me for the work I have done which is deception, blackmail, and theft.

                        In your own words, “We realize we have asked for REAL changes.” Remember that part? Well, thankfully, someone is here to remind you.

                        Pay what you owe immediately, otherwise I’d be certain to let attorneys look these correspondences over.

                        I’m also very well connected amongst the entire 3D community (hey, it’s a very small field) and forums having been a veteran all of these years. I also have several high-ranking blogs, which by dropping a name or two (as well as certain emails) should throw things right up at the front of the search engines. Better Business Bureau might also be interested. I also have an index finger on autodial concerning other coffee-related businesses who perform work similar to your own – maybe they would like to see some of this correspondence as well. I’ll do it all tonight if I have to. That’s the wonderful thing about the Internet. Once it’s out, it’s gone.

                        So, I suggest you really “think” carefully and process your thoughts before you “speak” next time cause I’m not giving you another opportunity.

                        I accept Paypal at the email address below.

                        And no, you’re not getting any more changes.


                        Thank you,

                        Charles


                        LunarStudio Architectural Renderings
                        HDRSource HDR & sIBL Libraries
                        Lunarlog - LunarStudio and HDRSource Blog

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                        • #13
                          Sucks to have to deal with clients like that. Reminds me of this:
                          http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html

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                          • #14
                            The bottom line here is that making the client understand the importance of a design phase is one of the most important things you will ever communicate to him.

                            I simply tell them that if they want a precise cost and an exact schedule, then they must provide a complete and detailed storyboard (or concept art) and a finished, comprehensive design spec with a limited iteration agreement. Anything less will mean that the client must pay a cost-plus format.

                            If they are not equipped to prepare for the actual 3D work with a design phase, I offer to help them put one together, explaining how much easier and faster everything will go after we complete this vital step.

                            Yes, you might end up doing fewer jobs, but at least the ones you get will not be losing propositions.

                            -Alan
                            Last edited by Alan Iglesias; 18-01-2010, 10:28 AM.

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                            • #15
                              I really don't think the client, for the most part, appreciates what we do and how long it takes. It seems most just see our service as a CAD service and we become CAD monkey's. I had a blow out with a client just like this and it really didn't do me any favors; I'll never get work from them or referred work by them.
                              Bobby Parker
                              www.bobby-parker.com
                              e-mail: info@bobby-parker.com
                              phone: 2188206812

                              My current hardware setup:
                              • Ryzen 9 5900x CPU
                              • 128gb Vengeance RGB Pro RAM
                              • NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090
                              • ​Windows 11 Pro

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