"Vray registered legal users list" AKA "Lets make life harder for warez monkeys"

[simmsimaging]

I attended a lunch-n-learn last month, and the presenter made a great point. His point was, "10% of the people chose the most expensive, 10% chose the least expensive", and everyone else is in the middle. So. I don't think, based on this statement, most people pick the cheapest.

I would question that. It is one of those things that sounds good but I am not sure it's actually true. I couldn't find anything to support that, and my guess would be that it would vary quite a bit with different market/services anyway.

It's probably more accurate to say that in most cases people will tend to choose the best deal that *still gets them what they want*. Some may, but most will not choose the cheapest if it doesn't give them what they want. That is the majority that makes up our potential client base IMO.

It's not always true the cheapest supplier is not giving them something that meets their needs, and often the difference we might bring to a project simply doesn't warrant the extra money. If it doesn't measurably affect incomes for the clients then there may be little incentive for many companies.

b

[glorybound]

I attended a lunch-n-learn last month, and the presenter made a great point. His point was, "10% of the people chose the most expensive, 10% chose the least expensive", and everyone else is in the middle. So. I don't think, based on this statement, most people pick the cheapest.

This was also interesting. It's not specifically about illustrations, but it makes a great point.
http://sachagreif.com/why-cheap-cust...+10+-+May+%232

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

hi Adam, thanks for your input!
we do put a lot of emphasise on the value either in the email correspondence or in the meetings. We also try to give to clients something extra...some "extent" aside from what they are ordering. So far it has been paying off quite well. We have price sets for new and for stable clients. We also have a discount system which takes into consideration the overal annual turnover/profit ratio and that we use to set the percentage of the discount a stable client gets with every new job that goes through our company. Aside...for example if the client comes in wanting someting really small that takes for example 2 hrs to do...we sometimes do this for free just to surprise them.
Having said this, its still hard sometimes keep good relationship with the companies. Usually when a company gets a new marketing or sales director, those guys have already their favourite companies in their sleeve so we automatically get out of the play. Not to mention massive corruption in the field of tenders....its so frustrating we gave up on those completely.
Its nice to have a valuable product when the client sees the value. Lots of clients today have been spoiled by price dumping (for various reasons) from freelancers and small, not very transparent companies here....so if you want to be in the play, and if you want the job which is more or less prestigious, you have to face the fact youll have to offer the same pricing but maintain the quality AND offer something on TOP. That all together is VERY exhausting sometimes when you look at the bank statement and see that all you got from the job is 10% profit

[adamf13]

Sorry, one more thought. Suppose all software was free? Unfortunately, I can't see how that would drastically affect pricing competition from the low-end vendors. There are just too many factors that are used to set prices and one of the biggest is the one that Bobby mentioned (price of living and its relationship to hourly rates). If somebody only needs $5000 to live on for a year, then they have much more flexibility in their pricing. I'm no economist, so I don't know how to solve this problem. Instead, I just try to not think about it.

Maybe it is ignorance on my part, but I see the primary thing you need to sell your client is VALUE. It doesn't matter what you sell, there will always be somebody willing to sell it cheaper. I don't purchase the cheapest clothes, the cheapest car, the cheapest food, or the cheapest apartment because I don't see them as a VALUE. I'd much rather find a product I pay more for, yet get more enjoyment or use from. I've found every client values something different. For instance, they may value your location (ability to attend meetings), your quality, your language, your professionalism, or your price. Now if they value price more than anything then there isn't much you can do besides with them luck with their project and let them know you'll be around if they change their mind. Hopefully, they'll see the value in paying a bit more if they can get more of the other attributes I listed. Now if we could all only find those clients...... but that's another problem for another day.

Hopefully I didn't steer the topic too far off subject, but this is just a something I'd been thinking about quite a bit lately.

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

Brett and Pixela:
those are very healthy opinions! Thanks for the different perspectives!

Ive probably concentrated my focus too much on the east.... blinded by price/quality factors :-/
Also, when i look back, i am and i was hardly affected jobwise by those guys there.
And i have to admit that for example here in Czech loads of freelancers are on pirated soft, influencing competition much more than those guys in Asia.

Lets see what happens here in Europe once the economical crisis really starts....i think its only warming up now.

[MoonDoggie]

You are absolutely right about this. India and some other countries get slammed for piracy a lot, but the problem is rampant here in North American and everywhere else. The difference is that the a-holes that do this here tend to charge as if they bought the software, so the difference is less obvious

Agreed completely with Brett and Pixela.

[simmsimaging]

I am from India.. I dont know about other countries but in India-

-... One more thing in this regards- It is not only India or any other eastern country.. piracy is in every part of world. As an example, i did a small product viz for a client from NY, after working with him he became friendly and while discussing stress and workload in our individual field he gave me a link to download pirated copy of "TTC-Stress and Your Body" series.. if pirated copy of such videos are used it is hard for me to believe companies in western countries are 100% legitimate in viz industry

You are absolutely right about this. India and some other countries get slammed for piracy a lot, but the problem is rampant here in North American and everywhere else. The difference is that the a-holes that do this here tend to charge as if they bought the software, so the difference is less obvious

The work coming out of India, China, and many other places is getting better and better. Much of it is just as good as anywhere else. It's *going* to change the landscape of the industry everywhere, sooner or later, so might as well get your head around it now. Blaming it on piracy is nonsense: it's a factor, but only a factor. That's my POV anyway.

/b

[pixela]

I think legalising pirate software will not solve the problem.
Because there is another fact about poorer countries: What people get paid for their labor is too low. So when your other alternative is 100$/month, then earning 100$/week is great.
The numbers aren't specific, just gave examples to be able to explain what I mean.
Let me explain more:
I don't know if they use ileegal software but if no, they can easily buy licenses by making few higher-price works and then returning to their price again.
What I mean is. using legal software will not cure the problem as long as there is this big difference through different places on earth.

For example in my country, people (non-3D people) usually work at least 12 hours a day (practically). In theory it must be 8 but it is never so. And nobody gets paid for extra hours. Only people working in global companies like Coca Cola etc have their rights that is pronounced in laws, work 8 hours, gets extra etc.
These people who work at least 12 hours get paid 1/7th, 1/8th of a European person doing similar job.
And living standard is never cheaper as many people think. Prices in cities, rents are very high. (Not lower than a Europpean city-I work in Europe too so I know).
So what do these people do?
Is simple: these people really live a very very poor life, and hardly afford their very basic essential needs. So such person ever has a chance to earn the double amount he gets paid, he will be happy. No matter how low this price may seem to another person in other country.

Lets look at 3D side:
Despite from the fact of expensive living, in my country computers, pc parts cost more than USA. We sometimes buy thing 1.5 times the USA price and we usually buy the former generation. For example, Intuos 3 was sold 1.5 times price Intuos 4 in USA. Not just tablets, almost any pc, electronics is similar.

I am not trying to defend pirate users, or try to show their fault acceptable. I am not complaining or trying to draw a sad melancholy picture.
All I try to mean is that there is big difference and inequality throughout the earth and if this problem is not solved, it is inevitable that those people will make same jobs for much lower prices. With legal software or not.
This is not because their countries are cheaper to live but because their life they live is much below the standards, and has always been so.

[glorybound]

In my opinion, the software isn't the investment, it's the man-power. If I had a large job, and I needed 4 guys full time for 4 weeks, it would cost me between $8,000 - $10,000 just in salary (not including benefits). Usually, we take the hourly rate, and double it for the billable rate. So. If I paid someone $15.00 an hour, I would bill out $30.00 an hour so, I would charge $16,000 - $20,000 for that job. I imagine (just seeing things in my head) overseas company's have people spread across their region, working for 10 cents on the dollar. It might be expensive to live in the larger cities, but it's dirt cheap to live in the smaller villages. I hope I'm not offending anyone, and this might be a skewed image, in my tiny pea-brain.

[glyph]

fwiw: Hong Kong is NOT a cheap place to live - housing rental costs are very high - certainly much more costly than China
but I'd guess they have an address in HK and the workers are in PRC

[beestee]

You can use Max and VRay to make visual effects for the biggest hollywood blockbuster, create any sort of content for the next record-breaking video game, or to visualize a shed for your uncle.

The software includes many, many tools and features that visualizing a shed would never require, but that doesn't mean that you don't pay for them or that you couldn't use them anyways. So is the problem really piracy, or that there are many other more affordable and approachable options available now that have blunted the competitive edge that paying a premium for Max, and knowing how to use it, used to afford?

[Neilg]

Come on Thorsten.... Where in my previous post do you read i accused the guy from using pirated software. I DID NOT!!!

It's quite heavily implied.

I am really tempted to give him a project...actually i would ..... if i was 100% sure hes got legit SW...

I reckon with hugely out of date software, good libraries, no amendments and quick photoshop thats possible. His images arent that good, so if everything from the lighting to materials was re-used between jobs you could cut your working time right down. It'd be an absolute sweatshop of a working environment though, with no creativity whatsoever. Maybe that's the only way these guys can compete with service and get a solid foothold in the industry, and they're just doing whatever they can.

If you're threatened by that kind of work you need to change the way you work, they shouldn't be getting anywhere near stepping on your toes. The cg industry moves quickly and always has done.

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

Come on Thorsten.... Where in my previous post do you read i accused the guy from using pirated software. I DID NOT!!!
I only expressed that it surprises me that it is possible to have such prices and delivery times. May of those things you can see on his website the guys delivers for prices between 200 -500 bucks. Thats amazing pricing when you consider the complexity if the works.

I have no idea about your portfolio structure Thorsten, but there are loads of people outthere who had to give up their jobs because of things described in this thread. It just not fair and it has nothing to do with competition. Gladly we moved our portfolio so we mostly do 90% of the stuff other than archviz. However i wish we did 90% of archviz because its my favourite field of CG and i would like to improve a lot more. BUT i dont have time for it beacause i have to do things that feed the company. We are fine and working away, have loads of work, provide very good service........i sometimes wish just wish the structure of works was better.

I will really think twice next time i start or join similar thread.

Appologies for this one.

Best Regards

[instinct]

So what do you expect from posting that? Basically you're saying the folks there use pirated software without any hint whatsoever, besides they are seemingly cheaper than you are. Now what should the readers of this post do? I for one know nothing about costs in Hong Kong. Neither cost of living, salaries, software and hardware prices or anything. So even IF you posted the pricing i still would not be able to tell anything from it.

One thing to keep in mind with software is that costs are going down if you are not upgrading every year. With VRay (which is cheap to start with) you could literally use it for YEARS without ever paying a cent and still be up to date. For max, you could easily stay on 2008 and and save a lot of money for upgrades etc.

Regards,
Thorsten

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

i wish i could post the pricing also ))