Polyline/spline-like drawing in 3DSmax as in Autocad/SketchUp

[Vizioen]

Hi guys,

as I'm used to drawing most of my architectural models in programs like SketchUp, Rhino,... I want to make the step to 3DSmax completely and skip SketchUp altogether, altough I think nothing can beat Sketchup's modelling tools, I want to give it a shot. But drawing in 3dsmax and snapping is horrible. I was looking at ways to draw outlines of shapes in 3dsmax but can't find a way similar to drawing (sp)lines like in Autocad, Sketchup or Rhino.

I found a script that might do the trick but it needs a recompile. http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/polyspline Maybe you guys know of another script or similar, or maybe even a method that works in 3Dsmax without plugins.

I'm just used to the click -> give distance -> enter way of drawing things.

Working from splines imported from a dwg or similar, isn't an option, as the plans I receive aren't always consistent/clean/precise, so re-drawing them in 3D is the only way I guess.

[flino2004]

i don't use MAX for modelling for all the reasons that you wrote there...I try to use the best of all the software I use. I'm an Sketchup fan because I can model most of the geometry way faster than a fast Max modeler but of course Organic shapes are always a problem in sketchup then I use Rhino for that to be combined in MAX. I really don't like that way MAX works for modeling...too many steps, snap is terrible and i don't feel that I'm using my time very efficient.

[Neilg]

you're trying to use max like it's rhino or autocad though, you need to change your methods somewhat. You need to start with edit polys and work straight in 3d. Set up keyboard shortcuts to change your axis between x/y/z (i'm always locked to one with 2.5d snap on - vertex only) and use shift-drag in edge mode of edit poly to pull new forms out. You will suddenly find that snap works really well.
Also in edge mode set up a keyboard shortcut to extract a shape from your selection. It's easier and significantly more accurate in max to work in edit poly and extract the splines out than it is to work directly in spline mode.
There are also some really clever ways you do a lot very quickly once you get used to it - using the same splines referenced to create massive amounts of geometry which is all locked together for example.

bear with me for this piece of advice - but once you get comfortable with this, do some modeling writing down what you click on and tally up how many times you use it and in what order (do dots on a page that run along lines so you can follow)
Then wipe an area of your keyboard shortcuts and start assigning these commands to an area that makes sense. i've got 'qwerasdzx' used, and in a way that my fingers dont get tied up (this is why you want to track the order)
you'll amaze yourself how much faster you get.

It'll take a while to get used to and start coming up with your own ways of doing things but it's not a lost cause. We've had a guy here who started 6 months ago after only using rhino and now says he can model significantly faster in max than anything else he's ever used. took him a month to start getting his head around techniques specific to max and break the old habits, from then on it was just getting faster and he's still got room to go (he's still not using any keyboard shortcuts except for shift-extrude...).

e: the evermotion arch viz training dvd's have sections on modeling in max that are actually really good (although in places still not the fastest you could go, it's a great starting pint)
Also this - http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials...farc/head1.php (just do the head part)
Is unbelievably useful for getting used to modeling with edge extrusion. I learnt more techniques for modeling boxy buildings from that tutorial than anything else i'd seen at the time.

[alexyork]

Use this:

http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/sc...port-auto-snap

It will automatically set snaps to 2D for ortho viewport work and to 3D for 3d viewports. Makes life 1000x easier. No idea why max doesn't do this by default.

[Vizioen]

Those are some valuables tips there, I'll be sure to check in here once in a while to ask some questions, thanks guys

[Vizioen]

I've been getting the hang of it. Things that really changed my mind about 3dsmax, which I didn't know were there because I didn't really model that much in it, are:

-AutoGrid (boy that's a life saver, have to be carefull with smoothing groups especially those that are generated by sweeps)
-Reference copy of splines together with proboolean and sweep can get you anywhere very fast
-Normal align
-Search 3dsmax commands 'X', this thing reveals a lot of commands or tools (if you know the proper names ofcourse) apparently new since 2014

Too much things in 3dsmax are just hidden

[Franx]

....
Too much things in 3dsmax are just hidden

Which brings the next tip of the day : customize your UI

[Vizioen]

Which brings the next tip of the day : customize your UI

Haha yeah I already had a toolbar with lots of buttons but I think I'll need a new one well actually if you know most of the commands/tools by name, just typing it goes pretty fast too

[Neilg]

that's where my tip about writing down the tool name/setting up shortcuts comes in.

[Vizioen]

that's where my tip about writing down the tool name/setting up shortcuts comes in.

Well in SketchUp I model lightning fast with these AZEQSDFGHLWX (and 99% of the time I wouldn't need any other buttons or keys). But I wouldn't have a clue with max what to assign actually because to me they all sound usefull. Care to share your shortcuts? Maybe that can guide me in the direction of what tools can really be usefull assigning to a shortcut. Also a lot of plugins and scripts out there that are usefull for modelling faster but I have no idea which ones are actually usefull to me. For now i have these which over the last few years I use a lot. But none of them have a lot to do with actual modelling:

-Isolation Levels
-Soulburnscripts
-Cleaner (Andreas Meissner)
-VMC
-Asset collector
-Relink Bitmaps
-Outliner
-Batch Loader
-Floor Generator
-AColorManager
-Berconmaps
-ColorCorrect

ForestPack,RailClone and SplineLand are also at my disposal.



So are there some scripts or plugins usefull for modelling; that are really recommended?

[Neilg]

I don't use any scripts for modeling - scripts for tasks, like floor gen. but you only do that a couple of times per project so once all the surfaces are set up it gets clicked once and happens. same with soulburn - dropping objects to a surface is something you just do once. leave those kind of things on the interface.

Keyboard shortcuts, tasks which i switch between every couple of seconds:
Shift drag in edge mode
change between edge/poly/vertex mode
zoom view to selected (current window only)
transform gizmo x/y/z constraints (very useful for modeling in perspective view)
object snap on/off, and switch between 2.5d and 3d snap
switch between move/select
ring & loop selection
connect & bridge
turn modifier stack end result on/off (for when i've got a meshsmooth up there)
target weld (in vertex mode)
create shape (for when in edge mode)
I use make planar a lot too - the x/y/z commands. Usually just click on those.

That's off the top of my head. there may be another couple I don't use as often, but with those I don't have to click anywhere on the interface for hours.

Honestly, run through this tutorial (not all of it, just until you've mostly done the head)- http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials...farc/head1.php
And start applying those techniques. Because you'll be working in one plane at a time this is where you'll be using the gizmo x/y/z constraints a lot.


edit: download this max file - http://we.tl/AMoml3Xst2
I made a rough plan and nearly every command I did, i did in a separate edit poly and named it what I did. After this you can use border selection and click 'create shape' to get splines. I would normally model it in one edit poly but i wanted to make it clear to follow - would normally take seconds to create.
Modeling over a sketch or pdf plan this way is great too - you don't need to snap and do the whole thing by eye. a few mm out never hurt anyone in max - everything else you'll make will come from this geometry so you wont get misalignment.
Basically instead of tracing around the outsides of the walls, you create the inside shape and extract the walls after. edit poly on those splines for the floor & ceiling, extrude for walls, cut/bridge those for doors & windows, extract shapes from the extruded walls for sweeps around window details or skirting etc. then you can go through and move door/window objects into place and run floorgen etc.
With complex shapes i detach and re-attach a lot, which means you need to add new control loops to weld all the right vertexes and get a closed mesh. Watch this too - https://vimeo.com/10941211
it goes over good techniques for reorganizing edges.

[Vizioen]

I don't use any scripts for modeling - scripts for tasks, like floor gen. but you only do that a couple of times per project so once all the surfaces are set up it gets clicked once and happens. same with soulburn - dropping objects to a surface is something you just do once. leave those kind of things on the interface.

Keyboard shortcuts, tasks which i switch between every couple of seconds:
Shift drag in edge mode
change between edge/poly/vertex mode
zoom view to selected (current window only)
transform gizmo x/y/z constraints (very useful for modeling in perspective view)
object snap on/off, and switch between 2.5d and 3d snap
switch between move/select
ring & loop selection
connect & bridge
turn modifier stack end result on/off (for when i've got a meshsmooth up there)
target weld (in vertex mode)
create shape (for when in edge mode)
I use make planar a lot too - the x/y/z commands. Usually just click on those.

That's off the top of my head. there may be another couple I don't use as often, but with those I don't have to click anywhere on the interface for hours.

Honestly, run through this tutorial (not all of it, just until you've mostly done the head)- http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials...farc/head1.php
And start applying those techniques. Because you'll be working in one plane at a time this is where you'll be using the gizmo x/y/z constraints a lot.


edit: download this max file - http://we.tl/AMoml3Xst2
I made a rough plan and nearly every command I did, i did in a separate edit poly and named it what I did. After this you can use border selection and click 'create shape' to get splines. I would normally model it in one edit poly but i wanted to make it clear to follow - would normally take seconds to create.
Modeling over a sketch or pdf plan this way is great too - you don't need to snap and do the whole thing by eye. a few mm out never hurt anyone in max - everything else you'll make will come from this geometry so you wont get misalignment.
Basically instead of tracing around the outsides of the walls, you create the inside shape and extract the walls after. edit poly on those splines for the floor & ceiling, extrude for walls, cut/bridge those for doors & windows, extract shapes from the extruded walls for sweeps around window details or skirting etc. then you can go through and move door/window objects into place and run floorgen etc.
With complex shapes i detach and re-attach a lot, which means you need to add new control loops to weld all the right vertexes and get a closed mesh. Watch this too - https://vimeo.com/10941211
it goes over good techniques for reorganizing edges.

Waw thank you very much. With constraining the gizmo to XYZ, default keys are F5 F6 and F7 right? and F8 to go planar? I was already getting the hang of that, while I don't understand why you would need 2.5D snap I'm doing everything with constrains and 3D snap. Any reason particular for 2.5D?

I did the head tutorial btw, I understand the philosophy behind polygon modeling I just didn't know how to apply it to architecture. Now I kind of understand. I'm used to putting in values in Sketchup measuring everything and not relying on the snapping on plans because I'm pretty anal about values like 214,999536 cm or the likes. But I think I'm going to have to put that behind me as 3Dsmax models don't need to be precise that much. Indeed if you use edge extrude with a constraint snap to the plans you might get somewhere fast because I was going to ask: how can you put in a value to extrude an edge like 250cm to left, because you can't, but if you have something to snap to like a plan than you can, more or less, base yourself of of that. Question is: what if you really need to extrude it by a precise distance?

I've been looking at Grant's tutorial already, and I was doubting to start following his Hard Surface course as I'm already enrolled in his Vray course. But I think it's a bit too organic for now, I'm not sure yet. I saw his last tutorial (http://vimeo.com/106099548) and I understand most of it but I think in the end everything is also a lot of practice to see how fast you can get from point A to B.

Thank you for the support btw, I appreciate it

[Neilg]

no worries

Question is: what if you really need to extrude it by a precise distance?

Create a box and move it to snap to the edge you want to extrude from - extrude the edge/snap to the box then delete it. in max I often create a lot of temporary geometry which gets deleted. It's great if you want 3 even divisions between a space - make a box, give it 3 segments, copy the objects, delete the box. Making junk geometry you plan to delete to give measurements is important for angles - instead of trying to figure out the angle, go across, up, bridge, delete the other 2 bits.
I found over time i rely on measurements much less that i thought possible.

Honestly I don't switch back into 2.5d as much when using the axis constraints and modeling in perspective - but sometimes i turn them off completely and work in top/front/left views, rather than switch between axis for every move you can trust that you're working on a flat plane without having to worry about it.

grants stuff is great for learning about edges - organic or not, you'll have a single poly which you need to bridge it to a more complex area, deleting and re-organising edges so you dont have hundreds of pointless vertices around the outside is useful. the joan of arc tutorial is good for the same thing - using shift-extrude for important areas, then bridging and refining further, keeping the mesh clean. you just need to be aware how it's done, don't worry too much if you've gone over it - as you get more experience modeling like this you'll naturally start using those techniques.

[glorybound]

Create a box and move it to snap to the edge you want to extrude from - extrude the edge/snap to the box then delete it. in max I often create a lot of temporary geometry which gets deleted. It's great if you want 3 even divisions between a space - make a box, give it 3 segments, copy the objects, delete the box. Making junk geometry you plan to delete to give measurements is important for angles - instead of trying to figure out the angle, go across, up, bridge, delete the other 2 bits. I found over time i rely on measurements much less that i thought possible. Honestly I don't switch back into 2.5d as much when using the axis constraints and modeling in perspective - but sometimes i turn them off completely and work in top/front/left views, rather than switch between axis for every move you can trust that you're working on a flat plane without having to worry about it.

type the height into the spinner. Guess at first and dial in with the spinner.

[Vizioen]

no worries


Create a box and move it to snap to the edge you want to extrude from - extrude the edge/snap to the box then delete it. in max I often create a lot of temporary geometry which gets deleted. It's great if you want 3 even divisions between a space - make a box, give it 3 segments, copy the objects, delete the box. Making junk geometry you plan to delete to give measurements is important for angles - instead of trying to figure out the angle, go across, up, bridge, delete the other 2 bits.
I found over time i rely on measurements much less that i thought possible.

Honestly I don't switch back into 2.5d as much when using the axis constraints and modeling in perspective - but sometimes i turn them off completely and work in top/front/left views, rather than switch between axis for every move you can trust that you're working on a flat plane without having to worry about it.

grants stuff is great for learning about edges - organic or not, you'll have a single poly which you need to bridge it to a more complex area, deleting and re-organising edges so you dont have hundreds of pointless vertices around the outside is useful. the joan of arc tutorial is good for the same thing - using shift-extrude for important areas, then bridging and refining further, keeping the mesh clean. you just need to be aware how it's done, don't worry too much if you've gone over it - as you get more experience modeling like this you'll naturally start using those techniques.

Well that's funny that's kind of what I was trying, I just thought there was an easier way, SketchUp is really good and fast at that kind of stuff.

Rappatools look kind of nice to speed things up.

type the height into the spinner. Guess at first and dial in with the spinner.

What height in what spinner?