Preliminary work

[glorybound]

I have a request to do some work on a large development, with several 8 story buildings, a few apartment buildings, and a sports complex. However, there will be no drawing files; basically we'll work back and forth to get the design. I have been pondering on how to quote this, but I wanted to see if anyone had any experience with a project like this. I was thinking to quote it as if I had drawings and tack on a, maybe 25% for the unknown. What do you think? My fear is I'll be trapped in a long term project and have to pass on other interesting things that comes in.

[chriserskine]

Is it a competition or an ongoing design that the architects are already working on?

I do this sort of thing in house. It would be difficult to quote for it. since architects will want to keep changing things forever, until the deadline.

if you can charge hourly or a day rate would be good. you could also work out when their deadline is and count up day rate including your overtime.

you'll end up re-doing the same thing many more times than your used to.

you'll also want a good workflow so its not really painful to update each revision.

these jobs tend to expand to fill whatever time is available, so if they don't want to pay too much. then you'll just have start the job as late as possible so they can't do too many changes.

[Jason Stewart]

Hourly or pass IMO. Giving a fixed fee on a scope of work that is undefined works out bad for at least 1 person in the deal.

[Companioncube]

i'd avoid it. they should really be using qualified architects even if it's just for the design but they probably can't afford it.

[glorybound]

I shot him a price as if I had drawings and doubled it; we'll see.

[super gnu]

definitely a daily rate for a job like this for me. or, an agreed fee for an agreed amount of time, with a (written!) agreement that extra time is billed as a daily rate. then make sure they are reminded that the period of agreed fee is coming to a close and yo are approaching "daily rate time"

as mentioned above, its a terrible idea to agree a fixed fee for an unknown quantity of work.

[Neilg]

definitely not a fixed rate! personally we'd pass on it, it's a major red flag for headaches.

[flino2004]

I would go a daily fee with retainer that covers 1-2 weeks of work ahead...when you are half way of that retainer I would bill another 2 weeks ahead.
I did it once and it was a nightmare....I was tired of "how about if...."

[Morne]

Hourly or pass IMO. Giving a fixed fee on a scope of work that is undefined works out bad for at least 1 person in the deal.

definitely a daily rate for a job like this for me. or, an agreed fee for an agreed amount of time, with a (written!) agreement that extra time is billed as a daily rate. then make sure they are reminded that the period of agreed fee is coming to a close and yo are approaching "daily rate time"

as mentioned above, its a terrible idea to agree a fixed fee for an unknown quantity of work.

definitely not a fixed rate! personally we'd pass on it, it's a major red flag for headaches.

I would go a daily fee with retainer that covers 1-2 weeks of work ahead...when you are half way of that retainer I would bill another 2 weeks ahead.
I did it once and it was a nightmare....I was tired of "how about if...."

I have to agree with all of these. I've had clients like this over the years and it's a major headache. If you have a constant stream of income, then it's not so much of a headache, because at the end of the day you want to pay your bills and have a little extra for savings and for spending.

You will run into problems because the job is never finished and can carry on for months (if not years). How are you suppose to plan your time then for other projects? You work for 3 weeks on this and hand it in and in your mind its done. You line up 2 or 3 other jobs but now the 1st one comes back and it's ok how about this and this and this and it just carries on forever. Yes most jobs have changes or revisions, but you can plan for those. Something neverending affects not just your other projects, but also your mental state.

I shot him a price as if I had drawings and doubled it; we'll see.

That's a bit risky, but you've had some good luck in the past so I hope this one will have a way of working out for you also.

[glorybound]

Scheduling is my biggest headache, so that is a concern. Typically, I tell people that the deposit gets them on my schedule and if I don't get timely feedback, I might have to reschedule the completion of their project. This, usually works.

[Neilg]

You could add a clause to your contract (you do have one right) where design development work gets billed at an hourly rate of $50 (or $100? idk what's reasonable for you), on top of your usual flat per image fee. You wont be taking the images past a mid-level point towards final until you have geometry sign off and no more changes are needed - if you have to step back, they get charged half the cost of a new image again.
Every time they ask for changes, send them an email with an estimate of how long it will take and get them to approve the costs ie: "This will take somewhere between 4 and 6 hours to update, so these changes will be $2-300", then once they approve that in writing you add it to an itemized invoice and do the work.
Say you'll send them bills once a month of all work performed - so first months will probably just be a bunch of design development items, but it does mean you can start billing them for your time immediately.
I'd also say you'll do it for no less than x number of images (3, 5?) so you can get the deposits on those, and they can pick what the images are and add more as you go.

It's a little convoluted, but I wouldn't go near it with anything less.

[glorybound]

Contract? I am working on it

The developer is the same as some previous work I did, so I know they pay. Either they didn't have a clue about the process, or they really didn't care, because they made change after change. I worked with someone for a month and then someone else steps in and changed everything. Deadlines were set by them and they were all missed, because they would vanish for days. The project started with basic floor plans and I was waiting for more information, but nothing ever came, so I sent a followup email. After waiting I was told that's all they have and we'll have to work through the details. However, I take the blame, because I didn't have a contract. I think I need to sit down with a layer, fork up the money, and do it right.