Fstorm render

[joconnell]

I agree, but that doesn't mean i dismiss there isn't need for some changes right now. There is no need to compare big studio vs other usage here, users are in the same boat.

Again the tough bit is there's different users that want different outcomes - some users want a final render out of the box, other users want better data as most of their time is spent tweaking render elements afterwards so there's big and small studios, each big studio works differently from another big studio and each small studio works differently from each other small studio, the users in each of those places all want totally different things to achieve their tasks

Hypothetically speaking, let's imagine there is one click universal solution available right now, it would be same for big studio and "little" guy it will only matter in terms of resources available.

Yep indeed - if there was one "best" renderer that did everything then most people would just hop on that. When autodesk started buying all of the 3d apps you'd have hoped that they'd take the best modelling, animation, layers, function curves tjhat they had out of the three programs and just combined those into a single "best" application but unfortunately it didn't happen. It'd be great if it did though, it'd make it way easier to find freelancers

Big studios, can afford one machine rendering 12+hours one frame, develop render engine, buy nuke licences, hire 10 guys to do post processing... How can you translate that principles to smaller companies or individuals?

You kind of can't really. I normally work in a fairly small place doing vfx work on some decent tv shows but with quite small teams. You'd have maybe 4 or 5 3d guys and about 15 compers - we mainly do comp work so maybe only 2 or 3 of the compers are working on our shots. I need to turn around a lot of shots very quickly and be able to put out the passes and data that they need to do their work with short frame times. Last month I was working in a studio that only does high end vfx, there was 430 artists working on the show that I was on and their render times were sometimes 20 hours or more on houdini renders. The difference is my normal company get a budgets maybe in the tens or low hundreds of thousands for their tv work, the big studio got budgets of tens of millions, they're playing by totally different rules so the rendering solution for one place might not fit the other

When I mentioned gpu renderers with kids tv shows earlier it wasn't any kind of disregarding of them, it's just that one company I know who does a lot of kids tv shows has to get out a very large amount of renders very quickly and at the cheapest cost possible. Since the show is for 5 year olds they don't care about quality of lighting and materials at all, the animation is also quite rough. The budget for this type of show is low and it's all about volume. For the company to be able to make the show and not lose money, they have to work with cheaper animators and less rendering power so if a gpu renderer is able to get out shots quicker at the quality that is acceptible then it makes financial sense for that company - they won't need to invest in a render farm, I.T. people to manage the render farm or the building space and air conditioning to sit the render farm in

All jobs are totally different with different needs so it just depends on what's the appropriate tool for you, there's no perfect ones for everything at the minute that does everything so you just have to make a choice about which one is the right one for the project you're working on!

[Ivan1982]

If we take this as a small example, the issue is that lots of different people working in different areas want different features in vray and they'd like the built in stuff to be better than a separate program who's only designed to perform that one feature. The film guys really don't care about lens effects or arion because it doesn't suit their purposes and they'll do all the stuff in nuke, likewise they don't care about gpu yet because the cards don't have enough memory to fit one of their scenes. They do care about things like light being technically accurate because they have to do 3d renders that match the way light worked in the footage that they're comping into. Arch vis or fstorm users on the other hand don't care about the technicality of the light, they just want to get a nice looking image out in the quickest time possible that looks about right.

I agree, but that doesn't mean i dismiss there isn't need for some changes right now. There is no need to compare big studio vs other usage here, users are in the same boat.
Hypothetically speaking, let's imagine there is one click universal solution available right now, it would be same for big studio and "little" guy it will only matter in terms of resources available.
Every car have it's own wheel, it differ in performance greatly between high performance one and middle tear version, but again it serve same purpose, it is standardized and fits purpose until something better pops out.
I am taking this as example as it is now more than ever obvious that GPU will take over lead in upcoming years from CPU, why not being ready for it?

Chaos isn't that big a company in terms of staff numbers and while I'd love it to have the best raytracing speed (which it might already), better shaders than whatever is out there, better volumetrics than whatever, a better atmosphere / sky system than terragen or vue and be a faster gpu renderer than whatever the fastest thing is. They still have a finite number of staff to make all this stuff with so can't concentrate on everything to the same level at once.

I understand, i know their resources is not infinite, it can't be all done in the same time, this is not about pushing them and request some crazy things, at least i didn't got that feeling from this thread, we are just talking about new possibilities, if they find it useful that is great, if not they do not need to feel discomfort.
It is opinion from "light" users, i am sure studios have more voting power but that doesn't mean we can't express our perspective.

As vlado says "if you find a renderer that fits what you want to do better, then great!" makes sense too. If you were a carpenter would you try to find a single multi tool that had loads of options for plumbing and electrical stuff too or would you get a few saws and screwdrivers that do that one single job really well? A lot of the big animation companies have replaced renderman with their own in house path tracers (let's say animal logic on the lego film). They know exactly the features that they need to make their current project so can put all their resources into those specific areas only. If they keep doing exactly the same type of film, this'll keep working for them (They are with the lego batman film). If in the next film they need totally different features like volumetrics and fur, maybe their next film is the Jungle book 2 so rather than only doing solid, shiny plastic which their fast raytracer is great for, they now need a renderer than can handle a tonne of hair and texture maps and displacement with motion blur efficiently. This is a totally different direction from where they started so the renderer will change heavily. The ui will get loads of new controls and get more complex looking but they need that to support all the next things that they're doing. It's the same thing with vray and the general versus specific tool option. If you only ever do car renders and nothing else, it'd probably make sense to pick a renderer that does really good solid object rendering and maybe has good passes and matte options to integrate into live action stills. If you only do arch vis stuff, you probably want something that does really good GI and has lots of memory handling - if you don't care about post processing then having some glow / glare stuff to add some realism would be nice too. If you do cheap kids tv show stuff where quality isn't a concern then you probably want a fast gpu renderer so you don't need to invest in a render farm and you don't want too many options or controls so that any user can pick it up easily.

Yes, every tool have good/bad side of dealing with different scenarios, but how realistic is to expect single person to buy 10 different licences for 10 different things? If things are working like that we would still have Amiga type computers, everything tends to evolve into one system that will overlap those 10 different things into lets say 3. No need for coprocessor type stuff...
I Agree that you need to pick your poison wisely, and that is why most of people are on vray(it simply offers most of those things in one package). But I do not agree archviz and tvkid shows are destined to look bad indefinitely.
Big studios can afford to develop their own render engine but that can't be expected from low level user, i do agree with most of people when they are expecting some new things to be changed or implemented, it will not mess up VFX, Archi, kids show industry it can only make better product at the end.

If you want to be able to do nearly everything well, you'll have to get a good general purpose renderer. It won't be as good as the specific render that's purpose built for one single task but then that's kind of the point - if you know exactly what you want and there's a thing that does it far better than anything else it makes total sense to use that thing. If you don't know exactly what you want or if what you need to do changes every time then you can either go with a general purpose tool that'll do a good job of each of them, or for each individual job keep buying the one thing that's perfect for that individual job.

Totally up to you as an artist and a business person to weigh up the good points and bad points of what's right for your needs and make a decision.

Again, everyone here realise that this is how things are, customers first talk with developer before they decide what to do next, if someone wants to change mobile/internet provider i am sure in majority of cases they speak with their current provider of services to see how thing are and how they will be before they make final decision. That is what happened here, people are interested about their future, and that is most important thing to them no matter how trivial it seems to someone else.
Big studios, can afford one machine rendering 12+hours one frame, develop render engine, buy nuke licences, hire 10 guys to do post processing... How can you translate that principles to smaller companies or individuals?

No matter how big something becomes it can crumble eventually, just remember what happened with all those projects from Autodesk(one example gMax), where is industry leader LightWave now, Softimage, Brazil?(actually Vray put a final nail in their coffin), there is so many examples.
On other hands we have something like zbrush, marvelous, even Vray, big companies did nothing about them. Usually all start as "little" guy fun, and before everyone blatantly disregard Fstorm or redshift as "kids tv show renderers" bare in mind they can end up being game changers eventually.

[joconnell]

You have implemented lens effects some times ago and that was great then, but they are not top notch as they used to be, people mostly rely on ArionFX while you are providing same stuff(that is not satisfactory). No one is saying you are not able to do better job, they just want to see it working better.

If we take this as a small example, the issue is that lots of different people working in different areas want different features in vray and they'd like the built in stuff to be better than a separate program who's only designed to perform that one feature. The film guys really don't care about lens effects or arion because it doesn't suit their purposes and they'll do all the stuff in nuke, likewise they don't care about gpu yet because the cards don't have enough memory to fit one of their scenes. They do care about things like light being technically accurate because they have to do 3d renders that match the way light worked in the footage that they're comping into. Arch vis or fstorm users on the other hand don't care about the technicality of the light, they just want to get a nice looking image out in the quickest time possible that looks about right.

Chaos isn't that big a company in terms of staff numbers and while I'd love it to have the best raytracing speed (which it might already), better shaders than whatever is out there, better volumetrics than whatever, a better atmosphere / sky system than terragen or vue and be a faster gpu renderer than whatever the fastest thing is. They still have a finite number of staff to make all this stuff with so can't concentrate on everything to the same level at once.

As vlado says "if you find a renderer that fits what you want to do better, then great!" makes sense too. If you were a carpenter would you try to find a single multi tool that had loads of options for plumbing and electrical stuff too or would you get a few saws and screwdrivers that do that one single job really well? A lot of the big animation companies have replaced renderman with their own in house path tracers (let's say animal logic on the lego film). They know exactly the features that they need to make their current project so can put all their resources into those specific areas only. If they keep doing exactly the same type of film, this'll keep working for them (They are with the lego batman film). If in the next film they need totally different features like volumetrics and fur, maybe their next film is the Jungle book 2 so rather than only doing solid, shiny plastic which their fast raytracer is great for, they now need a renderer than can handle a tonne of hair and texture maps and displacement with motion blur efficiently. This is a totally different direction from where they started so the renderer will change heavily. The ui will get loads of new controls and get more complex looking but they need that to support all the next things that they're doing. It's the same thing with vray and the general versus specific tool option. If you only ever do car renders and nothing else, it'd probably make sense to pick a renderer that does really good solid object rendering and maybe has good passes and matte options to integrate into live action stills. If you only do arch vis stuff, you probably want something that does really good GI and has lots of memory handling - if you don't care about post processing then having some glow / glare stuff to add some realism would be nice too. If you do cheap kids tv show stuff where quality isn't a concern then you probably want a fast gpu renderer so you don't need to invest in a render farm and you don't want too many options or controls so that any user can pick it up easily.

If you want to be able to do nearly everything well, you'll have to get a good general purpose renderer. It won't be as good as the specific render that's purpose built for one single task but then that's kind of the point - if you know exactly what you want and there's a thing that does it far better than anything else it makes total sense to use that thing. If you don't know exactly what you want or if what you need to do changes every time then you can either go with a general purpose tool that'll do a good job of each of them, or for each individual job keep buying the one thing that's perfect for that individual job.

Totally up to you as an artist and a business person to weigh up the good points and bad points of what's right for your needs and make a decision.

[joconnell]

Well, it is actually quite useful for me, even if it is unpleasant. Discussions like these give me directions on what we need to improve in V-Ray.

Best regards,
Vlado

Exactly. There's a really good book called "The obstacle is the way" by Ryan holiday which uses a lot of stories from the the old stoic thinkers. The title comes from the idea that if you come up against a problem, you'll be shown what you're weak at currently and where you need to improve to be able to solve the problem. If you treat each problem as an opportunity to become better then hard situations becme a huge advantage!

[Ivan1982]

You shouldn't feel discomfort, nothing is perfect in life. It is not BMW vs Mercedes talk as they are not even near giving automotive industry what chaos group gave to CGI industry.
People out there are counting on you guys to lead this transition, if it wasn't for you we would have completely different situation today. It is quite normal that anyone in that position have different priorities.

You have implemented lens effects some times ago and that was great then, but they are not top notch as they used to be, people mostly rely on ArionFX while you are providing same stuff(that is not satisfactory). No one is saying you are not able to do better job, they just want to see it working better.
People try Octane or Fstorm and say "Glare/bloom is working out of the box" maybe it isn't working precisely as Vray unclamped EXR + ArionFx + camera RAW processing workflow, but in 99% of cases it gets job done just as good, of course they will say something about that. Same goes for other examples.

You've already have this conversation countless times, there is difference between someone saying "that render engine is better as i like it more" and giving you realistic unbiased examples why it isn't better.
If you were in position of user of VRAY it would be different, you would like to continue using something you used for 10 years, as you are feeling comfortable about it, you have everything setup for that engine, you have knowledge and in worst case scenario you will need to adjust to few new options every couple of months.
As i said Vray became "standard" in this industry, even if licences are free, if you change engine there is period of adjustment you need to rely on converters, new workflow... People can't afford such changes every year.

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

cool i understand the need for feedback and i am sure everyone has their list of wishes ready to throw at you
How about a poll though?
Lets say TOP ten most wanted/needed?

[vlado]

Well, it is actually quite useful for me, even if it is unpleasant. Discussions like these give me directions on what we need to improve in V-Ray.

Best regards,
Vlado

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

i have to say (someone woudl sooner or later anyway most likely) that i am surprised that Vlado and the crew arent already tired explaining stuff over and over once another post like this appears....sure it usefull to a certain extent but i mean come on guys....this is VRAY forum.

Just wanted to say this...now you can start throwing stones at me

[vlado]

what is f stop render and why would anyone bother with it?

FStorm is a GPU renderer developed (at least in part) by some guys who used to work on Octane. You can find more information on its website here: http://www.fstormrender.com

Best regards,
Vlado

[mitviz]

It reminds me of my grandparents saying why do they need a smartphone when the one they have now work just perfect, now they are addicted to smartphones, reading newspapers etc on it, not to say vray is the old phone but its just saying its good to try new things, before vray was around other renderers were goign strong (idk what was because i started with vray and some others at that time) i bet when they came some were saying why use vray when what hey have already works lol, not 100 percent sure about this example but there must have been those people, they always are, But all said GPU rendering seems really interesting. one topic came up yesterday also just chatting with friends about how business and companies work, who knows if one day chaosgroup gets bought out by one of these other guys and no more vray? vlado is off somewhere on some island roasting with a few hot ladies and leave you guys stil talking about this and that. Dip your toes! vray might change to Vstorm one one day, hahaha, now am just messing

[squintnic]

what is f stop render and why would anyone bother with it?

[Donfarese]

If I were to walk into a BMW dealership, raving about the Mercedes, I would expect them to try and convince me why the BMW is superior. If I am resistant, they would probably tell me to go test drive and buy the one I like best. Software, I suppose, is pretty much the same, no?

I guess for some, but the rest of us are just looking to better each one. Why not buy a BMW and a Mercedes

[Nicinus]

I personally have a hard time seeing anyone doing things in a superior fashion to Vlado and his team, they seem to be on top on everything in the industry. Some of the smartest people on the block for sure.

Where I think it can sometimes differ from the competition is in their priorities, and how things are implemented I guess. I imagine that Vray has such a grip on the industry, and that therefore are so many specific requests from different studios, that a lot of time is spent tailoring to these needs. There seems to be a certain 'feature creep' where all sorts of options becomes available that I will never use, which is of course not to say that they aren't useful, but all the same it seems that other companies that are focusing more on usability and clever implementation of essential are taking serious advantage of this.

[glorybound]

If I were to walk into a BMW dealership, raving about the Mercedes, I would expect them to try and convince me why the BMW is superior. If I am resistant, they would probably tell me to go test drive and buy the one I like best. Software, I suppose, is pretty much the same, no?

[Donfarese]

Good job Vlado, yeah RT is probably around the same speed as well. With more tweaking you can get Redshift down quite a bit too. You can try something that I didn't think would work at first, Set the AA of that scene to 64/64 & adaptive error thresh 0.0, then see what time you get. What Xeons are you running it on, I doubt I could get near that time with my OC 3930k. I've chatted with them over at Redshift, they said they are working on core functions right now so hopefully even more speed. I talked to them about The way vray is setup, I do like having an easier method of setting up the scene like RT's "Max Noise", they said there working on some new auto method or something, can't remember all was late a few nights ago. Below is a quick fun test, Illuminating sofa with Platinum everything. Rendered in Redshift at 3min50sec.