"The hot topic"

[TRGraphics]

I've seen your work fastfraw. There is no way that it could be called art. You have to have skills and talent to be considered an artist. Calling yourself one does not make it so!!

And if somenone actually paid you for the work you do, your the one that should be ashamed.

You claim to be 32 years old and your still in school? I can certainly see why. You really need it!

Ok, you have managed to get the nasty responces you were looking for from the members here. So now it's time to move on to the next site and feed your sick since of humor there.


Tony

[Fastdraw]

Jest the comment I would expect form your kind.
My mother was 45 when she finished collage
not every 1 has a silver spoon in there AZZ
And that's your opinion to say that
im not going to say your work is not art .
see i say my opinion and you say bad things about me
now who is the bad person. you most not sleep well!

[ihavenofish]

O_o

umm, well, i dont exactly know what to make of this. weather to be insulted, amused, disgusted.

asside from the obvious and afforementioned facts that you need to cover your expenses, which will vary from region to region, setup to setup, there are a few things i dont think you quite comprehend about running a business and perhaps life in general.

i live in toronto canada. toronto is one of the more expensive places to live in this country, but not so much so that you need to be rich to live here. it also happens to be one of the larger centres for computer graphics in the country, and the most affordable of the big three.
i'll list of a few points that will quickly draw a "poverty line" if you ever want to get out of your mom's basement.

1. the average small house in toronto costs about $320,000. the average small condo is $200,000. the average cost of a 2 bedroom small apartment is about $1000 per month. a 1 bedroom apartment is around $850 per month. utitities(water, electricity, heat) for those apartments may be included, or run up to $200 per month additional. houses will have at least that expense plus an aditional $2500 per year in property taxes.

2. the average monthly food bill for 1 adult who eats out once a week or so is about $300-$500 per month. if you starve yourself and eat KD every day, you might get off on $200. aditional expenses like TP, soap, laundry and the like might run over $100 per month depending on how fashion conscious you are.

3. clothing, though usually not a monthy predicatble expense can set you back a fair bit. especially if you are trying to impress larger clients. as a benchmark to compare to your area, a blank no name t-shirt runs about $20. a pair of levis 501's are $70.

4. telephone service at its most basic is $26, with features and a bit of long distance calling it can creep up to the $100 mark fairly quickly. cable high speed internet access is $45 per month. cable tv will run $30-$50/month

5. if you can steal furniture and dishes from your parents, bonus, otherwise, even raiding ikea for the cheapest crap in the place can run you near $3000. trust me, i know, i just did it and thats just to do a small 1 bedroom place.

ok, there we go. we have all the things needed to live. i'll assume in there you already have your basic pc for surfing. so lets see... $10,200 or more just for rent every year, an additional $4500 for generic expenses at minimum. oh, wait, forgot the 15% tax on that... $5175. thats $15375 at the absolute cheapest you can scrape by with. well, lets see, whats that before taxes. at 22% income tax, you need to have a salary of $18,750, or about $9.10 per hour 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. impressive huh? the average mcdonalds/walmart type emplyee here gets $7.50 per hour 20 hours or less per week. hey, you've clued in, micky dees isn't a career.

so, where do we go from here. well, we need more money, i mean every cg worker has a bmw, i want one too. well, keep dreaming, cause you will need to be clearing at least tripple that to get one o them fancy new x-3's. oh, your under 25 years old? make that quadruple cause they are gonna rape you for $5000 a year insurance on top of that $650 a month lease.

so we forget the beemer and decide to get just the basics. a more comfortable appartment in a less crime ridden area. some furniture your not affraid to sit on. a chair that wont land you in traction, and that all wonderful thing we have called a metropass. $100 a month just to ride the fricken bus!

we are now closer to about $38,000 (or just shy of $20 an hour) and since we jumped to a new tax bracket, the government wants to swipe 31% now. thats about $2185 every month in your pocket, all of which is spoken for before you even get to see it. lets hope you have an understanding girlfriend.

so, what IS your job anyway? if we are working in a nice comfy studio, using someone elses equipment, this really isnt so bad off. you could do alot worse. you dont have a car and aren't saving anything though. that house of your own is a distant dream.

i know! how bout i open my own studio. i'll do it from home to save cash on rent, and use my existing PC afforded to me by my better $38,000 a year salary. all i gotta do is buy software. oh the pain. $4400 for 3d stuio max!!!! $900 for photoshop! oh, damn, this feature sucks, i need to buy (insert plugin product here). you mean i have to edit my own stuff? damn, there goes another $2000 for premire and AE. now, much of this aids in reducing your taxes, but you still gotta shell it out up front.

throw in printing, transportation to see clients (they sure as hell ain't coming to your cramped little apartment), cel phone and all the miscelaneous stuff that goes with this business, and you'll find yourself with a nice $10,000 + credit card nightmare.

you very quickly find yourself wanting your old job back. needing to earn now near $50,000 (with another 4% stolen by the tax man, and btw, ontario has the lowest taxes in canada) just to accomplish the SAME thing. you still havent got your car, your girlfriend left you cause you work 16 hours a day and cant buy here presents. and you bank account constantly reads 0.

i think anyone with half a brain can figure out the rest of this story. i wont bother typing it out. that and i'm hungry. sufficed to say, i havent included student loan payments (which can be downright evil), medical expenses if you are sick (yes, its canada, but there is still the odd bit that comes out of your pocket) and things like, oh, KIDS!

so smart-ass, undercut the industry and charge any price you like, but please, please, please, when i ask for my McChicken sandwich with no mayo, that means no fricken mayo.

..............
for reference, the canadian dollar is worth (today) $0.81 US and $0.60 euros

[percydaman]

haha nice post. but Im afraid we're all wasting our breath. I suspect hes just trolling. I aint worried about him or anyone undercutting me and my studio. We're not cheap and still theres more work then we could possible handle.

[dellis]

Fastdraw,

I rarely chime in on these types of threads but this is just plain ignorance as far as i can tell. First of all, i don;t really worry about you undercutting me or anyone for that matter...because in order for it to have any effect you would have to be far better then everyone else and have an almost omnipresent connection with every client that ever wanted/needed some "ART". Secondly, by undercutting everyone else....if it actually does work, which it won't....you will be essentially undercutting yourself. When you increase the supply side of things.....demand will go down. Let me clarify, if everyone charged as much as you say they should, the uniqueness and value of what you produce will drop.....bringing everything back to quality....which is what clents pay for.
Our industry is inherintly expensive....theres no getting around that. Undercutting is just irresponsible...personally and in the business sense but as a student i can appreciate that its not really a concern for you. Go out and take all the proper paths to doing 3d legitimately, buying all the software and hardware as well as everything else and then let us know how the undercutting is going.

And just for the record...i havea corvette and a brand new pickup truck and i live in a four bedroom house with a pool....all because i get paid what i'm worth and because my bosses clients get the product they want at a price that is fair to them.

[percydaman]

damn you dellis, we're all supposed to be "starving artists." your ruining that perception...hehe

[ihavenofish]

"spare some change for a max license?"

[Syclone1]

lol nice post ihavenofish, I dont think it could be put any better

Fastdraw:
Just like with art and services 99% of the time you get what you pay for.

-dave

[ezrhythm]

and the oscar goes to... ihavenofish! (aplauses)
McChikin part was the best, man... bravo.

[natty]

Damn ... i missed this one .... Fastdraw ...your a funny guy ... one day you will Learn the meaning of living and supporting a family of your own ... we get paid the going rate that the market allows to a certain extent... im not going to tell you what i charge, but i have a healthy living out of what i have done for the last 12 years or so ... and it hasnt come easy, ive had to work damn hard to gain clients and to gain there trust.. so in other words i charge above the going rate because my work is good and better than most of the competition around here, but my client's enjoy the realism and quality of work produced in a short amount of time and they are more than willing to pay .. So buck your idea's up .. and dont be a Scrooge ... lolololol ......

[flipside]

See when I go to sleep @ night I sleep good cuss I know where IM going when I die. How well do you all sleep.

I sleep well at night because I know where I want to go before I die.

[Syclone1]

I think you are on to something flipside

-dave

[gcf0303]

Fastdraw has 1 PC to finance and will undercut us ALL by offering the fastest turnaround time for a giant render that takes our studios of 50 to 100 servers about 5 hours to render.

Hmmmm... it just MIGHT work... each render job should take about.... let me think... 20 YEARS!!!!!