Deadline Creep

[dean_dmoo]

Honestly glorybound it sounds like you know how to handle clients what to do, but in all of your responses you say "but I usually don't charge them" "but I usually don't add a watermark" "I tend to warn but never make good on it"

So I guess in a very gentle and respectful way, I hope you understand that the problem is you, not the clients. I know, I know, this is a hard pill to swallow, but you are doing things correctly and not going about this randomly, but lack of follow thru has weakened your position with several clients (from how you describe it). Its like the parent at Target that keeps saying "put that down or your going to get a time out!" and all they do is keep repeating it and the kid keeps doing whatever they want because there is nothing that comes next, no consequence, no follow thru.

Break a few eggs, break up with a few clients, enforce a few contracts, say no a few times and you'll life and mental health will improve substantially.

I was actually going to say something along the same lines. I have a daughter (3,5 years old) and my girlfriend often tells her that something isn't allowed. But at a certain point she get's told that so often that she just ignores it till her mum gets angry. I'm pretty relaxed with most stuff but if she crosses the line again after 2 warnings she will get told straight away and punished. She takes my warnings slightly more seriously, still a little hooligan though.

Same goes for clients, if you keep warning them but never actually make good they won't take the warnings seriously. Also upfront communication is key imo, I hardly ever have these kinds of issues but I specifiy (both by email, contract, verbally, in meetings) what needs to be delivered, why, what the consequences are if they don't meet these critical points etc. At the same time I also say that if there are parts of the project still in development ( I'm often doing architectural tenders) let me know and I can leave that part to the last moment. But at the same time I get the impression I have different types of clients to the realtors and small scale architects you seem to be dealing with. So that's probably also a important difference. Reading your posts about problem clients they all seem so unprofessional.

[glorybound]

I don't think that they are so much unprofessional, but a little egotistical. Most of my clients seem to wear black turtlenecks and carry a cane. I think a few have monocles.

[OPEN_RANGE]

I face the same issues, although my workload is not as intense. I have simple language in my written agreement about revisions and that timeliness and quality of source material and feedback may affect schedule. When that starts to happen I tell the client OK, happy to do it. Will take longer and cost,about x amount more. Always try to be as accommodating as possible. Been frustrated but never had a problem in the end.

I have not needed to used watermarks to enforce payment etc. I think that might be needed for some and maybe you should try it. The ?not paid? watermark sounds like a good idea.

[glorybound]

Yeah, I know I am not alone. After I started this post I watched Fabio's latest Youtube and he touches on this ( https://youtu.be/WbrE1lPmb4c). His guest was also enlightening, hearing about his workflow. No proofs, just a final with an option for feedback. I have been contemplating a welcome to project email highlighting things like revisions, payment... Everything I have in my contract, only in an email so they actually read it. My mindset has been to invoice and forgive so that they think they are getting a break, opposed to nickel and dime, which will end up making them mad. I guess more of a value-based service and vent in places like this . Frustrations will come out somewhere and it is nice to touch base with my fellow illustrators once in a while.

[OPEN_RANGE]

I like that Fabio, he's cool. Your idea about the email sounds good.

You have so much work, maybe you can afford to pass some up and/or enforce extra costs more.. Perhaps consider charging more and maybe doing less = same amount of $.

I know it's easier said then done. Plus, you cannot let the final quality suffer.

[glorybound]

I like that Fabio, he's cool. Your idea about the email sounds good.

You have so much work, maybe you can afford to pass some up and/or enforce extra costs more.. Perhaps consider charging more and maybe doing less = same amount of $.

I know it's easier said then done. Plus, you cannot let the final quality suffer.

I have tried a few people, but it hasn't worked out. I don't find anything difficult to do and I am pretty proficient at it all, so I spend more time fixing than actually doing it myself. If I can get a handle on managing projects I'll actually get some sleep. My problem is spending days to get things right, which sometimes takes longer than anything else.

I don't want to be the only one putting my foot down on things. It is easy to say what you should do, but I want to know what people are actually doing? Yes, we should charge for extra work, but are we? We should pull the plug on a project if it exceeded its schedule, due to the client, but do we? Are we charging for a few images or are we charging for a service of value. You pay me and I'll help you sell units, but it'll cost you. I don't need people to open the manual and read it, I need people to be honest and tell me what they are doing. I talked to a few people recently and all said that they don't charge extra for extra stuff.

[glorybound]

I like that Fabio, he's cool.

Yeah, Fabio makes me laugh.

[OPEN_RANGE]

I'm not suggesting you hire others. I'm saying perhaps try charging more and so maybe, as a result, you get less work but it pays more and in the end you make the same $ for doing a bit less and the un ending deadline pressures ease up a bit. just my 2cents. Everyone's situation is unique and I respect opinions may vary widely about this.

I don't get too specific. I decide when to charge extra and I tell them up front when I'm going to. I always charge for extra time if the revisions get to be more than I budgeted for. I don't mind doing view studies and material studies...but I charge for that.

Below is copied from my standard Agreement for Service/Proposal. :

>>For any elements or materials not specified I will use my own aesthetic judgment. Revisions will be done at my standard hourly rate.

will schedule your project after this proposal has been approved. We are currently scheduling new project starts for February Xth. Renderings typically take between 1-2 weeks to complete. Times vary due to size and complexity, quality and timeliness of provided source materials and other factors.

To avoid conflicting direction, one person shall be appointed to communicate review and revision comments.

Some minor revisions are anticipated. Extensive revisions including view angle changes, materials substitution and design changes may be considered work beyond scope and require additional costs. <<

[glorybound]

What happens if you have a project scheduled for two weeks and they don't respond to your first set of revisions, which you sent out a couple days into the project, until after the project schedule date has elapsed, usually with an apology because they got busy. Now, you are well into another project, which has a 30-day scope. Having said that, yes my contract says that their project may need to be rescheduled due to the missed milestone, but is that realistic? A lot of the time my client is waiting on a 3rd party for information, so it isn't really their fault.

Raising price sounds great! I would love to spend a lot more time on my work, but that takes a special client, which I have yet to find. I have had a few who have said to take your time, but they are not willing to pay more for my time. The selling value sounds a lot better than selling an image.

[andybot_cg]

Maybe sounds like you're afraid to communicate what you see as bad news to your clients. If they are delayed, just be upfront that now that their project is back on your schedule, it will take x amount of days before you can get back to their project. It's really not solely on you, it's ok to not jump on every request.

[OPEN_RANGE]

Yeah, I'm afraid my comments did not really directly address your point. Kind of tangential. (Raise price...... but don't spend more time on work.) Just have less work in the pipeline so you can react to the inevitable shedule-re-schedule shuffle.

I'm not thinking special client I'm thinking only take the most lucrative work, you seem to have plenty. All of your work is A++. FWIW I would say the simplest rendering I have seen of yours would be $1,200 minimum. Others double or more.

Also agree with Andy above. Do what you can for them but "don't let their lack of planning/responsiveness constitute your emergency"

Reminds me of when I was a superintendent for high end general contractor. Chart elaborate 2 year long project schedule, in consult with all the subcontractors. One doesn't show up on time due to their own schedule conflict. Domino effect then begins. End up re-writing schedule multiple times and ultimately throwing away the schedule.

[glorybound]

Yeah, I'm afraid my comments did not really directly address your point. Kind of tangential. (Raise price...... but don't spend more time on work.) Just have less work in the pipeline so you can react to the inevitable shedule-re-schedule shuffle.

I'm not thinking special client I'm thinking only take the most lucrative work, you seem to have plenty. All of your work is A++. FWIW I would say the simplest rendering I have seen of yours would be $1,200 minimum. Others double or more.

Also agree with Andy above. Do what you can for them but "don't let their lack of planning/responsiveness constitute your emergency"

Reminds me of when I was a superintendent for high end general contractor. Chart elaborate 2 year long project schedule, in consult with all the subcontractors. One doesn't show up on time due to their own schedule conflict. Domino effect then begins. End up re-writing schedule multiple times and ultimately throwing away the schedule.

Yes, your contractor analogy is spot on, which is why you have project managers for construction projects. I am on the board of directors for a local non-profit and we had a building project. We paid a local company 40 thousand dollars to manage it. Nothing else but managing all the sub-contractors and volunteers.

I have posted my work here, with prices, and I got comments like they robbed you and you robbed them. You would think our industry is mature enough to have some kind of consistency.

[OPEN_RANGE]

Yes the schedule thing drove me nuts. that and dealing with people and problems all day caused me to burn out/flame out and quit a very good paying job to become a freelance arch viz guy. Just wasn't temperamentally suited for it.

(Last project I worked on I got the whole thing ready for dry wall. exterior 95% done, all mechanical etc rough in complete, insulated. New super took over. Project burned to the ground in the middle of the night 5 days after I left. fire Inspectors suspected me but I was cleared.)

Never saw any of your pricing posted. Take my suggested value as just my opinion/what I might charge. I like Fabios video about pricing. Definitely a range across different countries.

My main point is that having less work that pays more might possibly help alleviate the scheduling problem. No one ever said in their last moments, "gee I wish I had spent more time working"

[OPEN_RANGE]

Another thought for you to consider. I typically try to do this. For example Estimate job will take 40 hours, plan 2 weeks to get it done. IOW build 50% or whatever into your schedule. Gives you flexibility, and time cushion.

[glorybound]

In my world, it is like the aviation industry. I overbook (quote), not knowing how many no-shows and cancelations I'll have. You know, if I can find someone to help, good and cheap, it would be golden . If I were to schedule 40 hours, I would spend 1/2 of it waiting on feedback. This is how I juggle many projects.