Working without Construction documents

[glorybound]

Do you guys take on projects without construction documents? I mean, a 40 thousand square foot mixed-use complex basically from a site plan sketch and a photo reference? Last year I had someone reach out to me with a project, which had very little information. Against my normal protocol, I took it and it went well. I did a second with them, again with little information and that one went well, too. This third one, not so good. The problem with no solid documents is everything is subjective and there is no baseline. So, yes or no to taking a project without documentation to work from?

[glorybound]

This is what I got. Yes, I took the project, but just based on the first two being successful; an easy lady to work with. This one, I modeled it based on the photo, but her boss said that it looked too industrial, so he made a bunch of changes, which I did. Would you have even considered it? If she called ten people would she get ten people saying no, not without documentation, or would most people take the project?

[VelvetElvis]

This is the type of job where you take it, but you bill hourly. DBOX talks about these types of projects in this fantastic interview on CGArchitect. http://www.cgarchitect.com/2017/07/b...-4---contracts

The summary is that DBOX essentially calls it ?Knowing where the flowers go.? If you know in your design where you want to put the flowers, then the contract can be a flat fee. If you don?t know where the flowers go, then the contract switches over to hourly. When you are in a design phase that has a constant moving target, ie not knowing where you want to put the flowers, that job becomes incredibly difficult to track from a financial aspect. A task could take 4 hours, it could take 40 hours. If you don?t know what the client wants and they are in the ?I?ll know it when I see it? mode, it is impossible to budget for that.


I would take the job, but as noted above it would be billed hourly.

[glorybound]

Good advice, thanks! I tell them that if I don't have the information and I am told that they trust me then what I do is right and change will be per hour. Now, my contract says this, in so many words, but I don't really enforce it. I like the flower analogy.

[Morne]

They say we learn from our own mistakes. Good tip is to also learn from other people's mistakes. The advice given above is gold.

These kinds of jobs are not just difficult by itself, but also affects EVERYTHING ELSE!
It's great to get paid by hour, but that should be a premium hour, not just a normal hour. Reasons being among others, TIME and your business. You can't schedule anything properly on other projects if you have no clue when the client will decide when they are now happy with where the flowers go.
A quick "2 week" project can very quickly escalate into a 7 month project!

[glorybound]

Yes, that is where it was going. "I have a meeting Thursday, what can you do by then?" and when I got them something it was, "we can push the meeting off a few days, can you make these changes?" This happened three times. I was shooting for something conceptual and they were looking for a $5-6 thousand refined rendering, which went way different than the first two images I did for them. She got really mean, which was also strange. I politely and briefly responded to two of her very long and very confrontational emails and I ended it by saying we are probably not a good fit and I wished her project well. Unless I really needed the work, I don't think I will be entertaining those kinds of projects anymore. Like you said, they are time holes and every other project becomes a victim to it.

[JezUK]

Lots to say on this one - and I agree with everyone !

Generally, my answer to your question though is NO. In fact, one of the very first things I tell new clients is "I'm not a designer". And they totally accept that. I describe myself as a 'photographer that uses a computer to create photo-images', so 'use me as a photographer' - if they need an architect, they should pay for one (not ask a 'photographer' to become an architect for a day/week/month). Might be different if your background is in Architecture but my clients and their requirements can and are from all different domains so their full, proper brief is vital to me.

However, if you did 2 projects like this with them before and those went well, perhaps she might have had a point on the 3rd and maybe telling her you're not a good fit was a bit harsh ? (no judgements, I'm not there with you and don't have all the details).

But it never ceases to amaze me that when you tell a client that working this way costs x much *more*, they suddenly become very focused and less wasteful with time. Or, that that major, very important request that they simply *had* to have (for free) and could not live without is now no longer required and quickly and effortlessly dropped (once they are told if they want it, they will be billed for it). Once tables turn and extra costs will be added they often have a change of heart. And this swing can then go on to affect your relationship with that once great client, where things were once perfect and cordial, but are now sour.

I guess what I'm saying (to both you and I) is "keep it business-like" - in my case, due to recent events happening to me (and a good client), I'm seriously considering no longer doing *anything*, however small which wasn't agreed at the beginning or in the original design - it's always ended badly (for me).

And whilst I do agree with the hourly rate idea (it was the first thing which came into my mind) - the number of clients I've had who paid me by the hour in 20 years of freelancing, I can count on one finger - though they did pay me a HUGE amount over 18 full-time solid months (with plenty of overtime / 6 day weeks)

[glorybound]

Good stuff, thanks for the comments. Just a note. After reading her two long-winded emails about what a terrible person I am, I replied with, "maybe we are not a good fit". I kept my replies very professional and it wasn't hard to let this one go. I will avoid these from now on. Actually, I had one just yesterday that I turned down when I heard things like, "just cute/paste" and "quick photoshopping".

[OPEN_RANGE]

Keeping it all stated up front is key. "I will use my own aesthetic where info/source material is not provided. Changes and revisions will be billed by the hour at X$/hour."

The project you show is large and almost no detail. Very difficult.

I once did a shopping center based on photos torn form magazines that I was sent. Client was happy... but he was an odd person.

I was very recently contacted, by referral, by an organization that want a rendering that would represent a remodel and enhancement to an existing building. They want to raise funds to to do the work to create a new public facility (museum) in an existing ho-hum building. I told them I was not trained and did not work as a designer or architect and suggested they might be best served by first hiring such a person. I then said that I did have a lot of experience with building and visualizing architecture and if they wanted me to make a go at it I had some ideas. I showed a very very rough concept over a photo of the existing building in pshop.

They seemed pretty resistant to hiring an architect or designer at this early fund raising stage. They seemed to like me and what I was suggesting. My proposal is going in front of their board next week for consideration. I was clear about revisions, design by committee issues and etc in the proposal.

I liked these people and I like their organization (historical society)and I'm OK with doing this without any plans or source material. That might not be true for a situation like you describe above. So...one policy may not necessarily fit all cases.

Hope it works out!

[glorybound]

I see projects in two categories. Will it make me a lot of money or is it a cool project. If it isn't a lot of money, but cool, I'll consider it. If it is a lot of money and not cool, I'll also consider it. This mentioned job wasn't good paying and it wasn't cool, so I shouldn't have taken it.

[OPEN_RANGE]

I think I look at things in the same way.

Ideal = cool projects that make a lot of coin...

[glorybound]

The mammoth houses you see on my site I do at a bargain price, but they are impressive, I do projects that I do show because they are not worth showing, but they paid well. It's best when they pay well and are cool.

[jackieteh]

Do you guys take on projects without construction documents? I mean, a 40 thousand square foot mixed-use complex basically from a site plan sketch and a photo reference? Last year I had someone reach out to me with a project, which had very little information. Against my normal protocol, I took it and it went well. I did a second with them, again with little information and that one went well, too. This third one, not so good. The problem with no solid documents is everything is subjective and there is no baseline. So, yes or no to taking a project without documentation to work from?

I get a job like this too, but i charge in hourly