Basic Exterior and Interior Set up

[Brandon Blair]

Hey All,

I am using 3dsmax 2019 and Vray 3.6 ( most current version)

Hardware: Processor : Intel Core i7-8700 3.20 GHz, 3192 Mhz, 6 core, 12 logical Ram : 32 GB GPU : Geforce GTX 1070 Ti OS : Windows 10 64 bit



I don't expect someone to answer all of this!

I am just looking for a good base line set up for this type of work, or at least a youtube channel or even paid tutorial like lynda.com. The problem with Lynda is it out dated in terms of software and using the practice files takes a lot of debugging on my end and figuring out which settings blow up in my versions of the software.



I just started using Vray and 3dsmax having about four months under my belt. I have done all the training on lynda.com and I am currently going threw the course ware that Choasgroup has on their webpage. While I am getting better and can drive the software for the most part, I am still missing some things. I also have tons of questions but a lot of the resources out there are disjointed, outdated, or don't cover the topic very well and leave me confused.

I am most dealing with Arch Viz environments. Large Scale Exteriors and fairly large to small interior scenes. Is there any ground up tutorials for this kind of work? Id like to have a understanding of what I am doing rather just be told to put parameters at certain numbers. I would like to know the cause and effect of what I am doing.



My main struggles.

1. Losing Detail in large environments on my materials. Such as cobblestone, concrete and precast. Using poliigon materials with converter right now, then using Vraydisplacement mod and detaching the displacement map on materials if needed.

2. Creating Natural materials without blowing up my rendering time. I was told to use Vrayfur for grass but it seems to wreck my machine which is a new workstation. Along with water, I use pretty much the same base diffuse material as glass but adding a noise map. Works okay but not great.

3. Lighting. What is the main difference between Sun and Dome light for exteriors? I have been trying to use HDRI Maps on my dome lights and environment map it works well but I dont fully understand what controls the exposure and lighting levels. I have played with the HDRI Map render settings but I feel like this is wrong. Also Lighting in interiors seems to either get super blown out or super dark, and once i try to blend internal and external lighting I have zero control.

4. Overall Exposure and Camera settings. I have been taught to use 3ds max physical camera for rendering in vray. I just don't know how to drive my exposure settings in the environment tab or if I should even use that setting group to do. I often start scenes fighting either super dark or very over exposed lighting. Do I use Vray exposure control? Do I use the physical camera to drive exposure and control it? Is it a blend of exposure controls and lighting parameters?

5. What is the best way to fill a scene without ramping up render times? I know using Vrayproxy and Xrefs are a good start, but ive also seem people use pre rendered planes and instancing of lower poly models depending on needs.

I have so much more but don't want to overload you guys!

My main goals.

1. Figure out a good base line set up for both exterior and interior rendering. In terms of lighting and material set up along with asset control and usage.

2. Understand how to control my scene lighting, and render quality. Would like to be able to trouble shoot and solve my own problems such as over or under expose scenes and noise. How to control and use interior and exterior lighting together for a more realistic effect.

3. How to use materials and what processes to apply to my 3D geometry to improve time and overall quality.

4. Understand when and why to use certain scene assets or tools over others such as Vray Sun over Dome light and HDRI. Or Vrayfur vs displacement mod vs just post processing for grass. The same goes for water and glass. I understand how to make a basic glass material but I would like a deeper understanding.

5. The best use for Vray render elements for post production, I have seen beauty pass composting and understand it well. I just want to know how to best set up my 3d scene to get the best post production tools. ( I am advanced in photoshop )


Cheers!

Brandon

[glorybound]

To tell you the truth, reading all the posts and watching all the videos will just confuse you. Ask ten people and you'll get ten different answers. I remember my first V-Ray project. It went well, easy, and the client commented on all the amazing detail. Then, I started reading all the threads, watched all the videos, and it took me years to recover. I would recommend studying basic art and color theory, architectural photography, and storytelling. Learn how to use a real camera and how to take a good picture with it. Learn about lighting, what lumens are and the software will make sense.

With HDRI's, it gets frustrating because the brightness is different in almost all of them. Set the camera to a real-world value and adjust the HDRI's intensity accordingly. For interiors, set the lights to the correct lumens, the camera to real-world values, and your lighting should start to look real. With materials, what works for me is a good diffused and bump if needed. Look at photos and add reflection and glossiness if needed. I have seen people spend an hour creating a material that takes an hour to render on a shader ball. Keep it simple.

I am sure much smarter people will have much more to say, but be prepared to hear just the opposite from others.

[^Lele^]

Bobby, you went so meta in that post that i couldn't help but having a giggle.
You just told Brandon to not listen to ANYONE on this forum (which ought to include you too, by definition)as there are a million different suggestions being thrown about.
And then you suggested him stuff.
Which he shouldn't read, or heed.
But should he heed you when you tell him to (essentially) stop reading the forum *right then* ?
And if he did, how would poor Brandon, so stopped in his tracks, ever know of the effort you put in trying to share with him hard-earned knowledge, just a line down in the same post?
But you gave him golden tips, which he should heed, if he managed to not heed you the first time.
What's confusing then: the forum, the forum posts, the forum posters, or the Lynda videos? ^^ (pulling your leg!)

Brandon Blair
, as we launched V-Ray Next, we also launched the brand new Docs.
https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY4MAX

This is *the* place you want to check your knowledge, impressions, doubts and intuitions against.
When in doubt, go back there.
If still in doubt, post here, someone will try and help, most of the time making a modicum of sense as well. ^^
And besides telling you not to read a thing, what Bobby posted is truly good advice.

[glorybound]

My take on Brandon's post. "Hey guys, why is my picture either too dark or too bright?" Here is Lele's response. (just playing, so nothing personal)

https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w?t=21s

Brandon is obviously steeping into something that others have been in for a decade. I simply gave my opinion to save him a heap of long-winded threads that'll leave 90% of the people scratching their head. When I read your post on Proxies, which to me was a long essay, I came away with, "use proxies". If someone asked how to save RAM since they are running out, I could write 20 pages of technical data, or I could say, "use proxies". Now, I do appreciate you and I am sure others want a deep explanation, however, I think I am correct considering the direction Choas took in simplifying the UI. Yes, some want more granular control, but the majority just want the software to get out of the way. Most of us are not aiming to get our PHD in V-Ray. We migrated here to create better pictures. When I first started V-Ray I spent 90% of my time fighting the software and 10% of my time creating pictures. Now, with the easier to use V-Ray, I just hit render and I can concentrate on making pictures.

[^Lele^]

My take on Brandon's post. "Hey guys, why is my picture either too dark or too bright?" Here is Lele's response. (just playing, so nothing personal)

https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w?t=21s

Brandon is obviously steeping into something that others have been in for a decade. I simply gave my opinion to save him a heap of long-winded threads that'll leave 90% of the people scratching their head. When I read your post on Proxies, which to me was a long essay, I came away with, "use proxies". If someone asked how to save RAM since they are running out, I could write 20 pages of technical data, or I could say, "use proxies". Now, I do appreciate you and I am sure others want a deep explanation, however, I think I am correct considering the direction Choas took in simplifying the UI. Yes, some want more granular control, but the majority just want the software to get out of the way. Most of us are not aiming to get our PHD in V-Ray. We migrated here to create better pictures. When I first started V-Ray I spent 90% of my time fighting the software and 10% of my time creating pictures. Now, with the easier to use V-Ray, I just hit render and I can concentrate on making pictures.

ahah LOL to that video!

Oh, i do understand the need for streamlining and simplification: most of the tools i released had one to three buttons.
Yet, if you walked away from the RAM post with just "use proxies", you'd be missing out on the juice, that post rendered utterly useless.
So, while it's good to lower the entry barrier as much as possible, it's also true that below a certain threshold of complexity, one can't operate effectively.
In other words, Bobby, if you can't find it within yourself to learn all about render sizes (as an abstract example), and the controls needed to operate them, there is no software, AI or metaphysical being which can make the choice for you: you WILL need to learn about such things as Width, Height, image and pixel ratio, DPI, and further go find the controls and change them to suit your needs, as explained by the client, with which you had to communicate with that terminology.

You needn't concern yourself with montecarlo sampling or complex light transport to achieve the right image size for your project, truly, but no one would suggest you to do so in this forum, and rather direct you to a manual page, or the controls themselves.

So i'm not sure i agree with your take on simplification, when it's that sweeping, nor i feel these forums did, or do, a bad job at teaching people how to use V-Ray effectively, and i mean this in all which has not to do with my own contribution: you'll be hard pressed to find such a helpful community elsewhere, and i don't think it's right calling it "messy" and "confusing", just because so it appears to you.

Forum search doesn't lie, after all.

[glorybound]

I think you need simplification in the beginning and you can advance your knowledge as you go. There is a reason why Einstein said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". There is priceless value in this forum and I am a prodigy of it, but I think I would have benefited faster if I had less information in the beginning.

[^Lele^]

I think you need simplification in the beginning and you can advance your knowledge as you go. There is a reason why Einstein said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". There is priceless value in this forum and I am a prodigy of it, but I think I would have benefited faster if I had less information in the beginning.

That is a fake quote, Bobby.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert...#Misattributed

I guess the one lesson you ought to take home from this is "Make sure you know your sources".
Which is what i replied with my first post, and the link to the Docs.

[glorybound]

Sorry, it can't be fake because I read it on the internet.

[Brandon Blair]

Sorry, it can't be fake because I read it on the internet.

Thank you for being real. I have already started down this path in terms of photography studying and knowledge. I come from a Industrial design background but want to make my way as an environmental artist and 3D visualization specialist of some sort, so no amount of reality or hard work will stop that! I have been struggling with the exact thing you talk about everyone has a different way, and they conflict a lot. Some people seem to have a simple understand that gets them pretty far, and others are so advanced it seems like ill never truly understand haha! I guess I just need a more basic understanding still. I am use to keyshot and solidworks or fusion 360 so this is a big jump for me in terms of digital creation and knowledge. Thank you again for your words I will keep them in mind as I study! Also thanks for the tip on interior and using the camera to drive most of the lighting settings. This makes the most sense to me and will compound with what I am learning!

Although to play devils advocate I am not sure if I should trust someone who is a self proclaimed "prodigy", and responded first with obvious statement and picture . None the less I thank you for the real talk, and it makes sense.

None the less cheers and thank you!

[Brandon Blair]

Thank you all for your solid and real advice! Ill keep on focusing on whats important.

[Brandon Blair]

Bobby, you went so meta in that post that i couldn't help but having a giggle.
You just told Brandon to not listen to ANYONE on this forum (which ought to include you too, by definition)as there are a million different suggestions being thrown about.
And then you suggested him stuff.
Which he shouldn't read, or heed.
But should he heed you when you tell him to (essentially) stop reading the forum *right then* ?
And if he did, how would poor Brandon, so stopped in his tracks, ever know of the effort you put in trying to share with him hard-earned knowledge, just a line down in the same post?
But you gave him golden tips, which he should heed, if he managed to not heed you the first time.
What's confusing then: the forum, the forum posts, the forum posters, or the Lynda videos? ^^ (pulling your leg!)

Brandon Blair
, as we launched V-Ray Next, we also launched the brand new Docs.
https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY4MAX

This is *the* place you want to check your knowledge, impressions, doubts and intuitions against.
When in doubt, go back there.
If still in doubt, post here, someone will try and help, most of the time making a modicum of sense as well. ^^
And besides telling you not to read a thing, what Bobby posted is truly good advice.

First off thank you!

Did a post get removed? The only information I have gathered so far is to not trust everything I see or hear, use https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY4MAX to fact check and inform my self on what I have learned. Saw a lot of posts referring to a long winded and dry reply that might have been confusing but it seems to be removed maybe? I am not scared of dense homework to get a good ground to start walking on, but I also understand the value of "KISS" keep it simple stupid.

Thinking back I should have asked more simple and focused questions and maybe would have gotten a resource in that vain. I am just looking for a good baseline of information and processes to start with so I am not developing bad habits or just spamming the render button in hopes of improvement without the actual knowledge to troubleshoot it myself. I know everything is contextual and there isn't one master setting or parameter that just makes the render sing.

The best resource I have gotten into on this type of work has been BlenderGuru. Even though most of his stuff in based around blender, the concepts and base knowledge seem to overlap into Max and Vray. Especially his series on the artistic side of rendering and composition that a lot of people miss out on, imperfection is perfection! Sure its not how to use the program or anything like that, but its great for understanding material creation and building out scenes. Along with the more artistic side, which I have more knowledge in but can see how you lose some of that thought process diving deep into the parameters and setting up scene in programs like Vray. I bet you all know of him hah!

What Glorybound said about lumens and understanding photography is great, along with telling me to use the physical camera to drive my lighting has helped a lot with my exploration. Also like I said before keeping it simple and taking smaller bites is a great thing to hear from someone who is farther along. I am hundred or zero kind of guy so its hard for me to step back and take it slower, it is also hard for me to do that because I just don't know what skills or knowledge to value at this stage or my learning. I know the interface and basic knowledge of what each parameter means, but not how they inner play with each other and how they drive one another.

I wont be stopped by such things, I respect the footwork all of you have put into your work and processes. I feel like I am cheating by even asking for help seeing how hard this, and must have been to learn even five years ago!

My confusion still probability lies within a lack of knowledge and experience, along with looking at to many different sources. I think I am blending to many resources in my process and they conflict, such as using the Vray exposure settings in the environment tab to drive lighting instead of the physical camera exposure ( which to me makes the most sense ). The whole don't listen to anyone but listen to me thing was confusing at first but I understand the truth to that comment. Also just comparing what I am creating to the masterful work out there, without even knowing how much of it was Vray driven vs post processing vs high quality modeling. That probably doesn't really help.

Taking your advice and using choasgroup docs to fact check what I learn and to educate myself, along with the course ware that is provided there as well.

I know I am asking very broad questions and I apologize for doing so!

Cheers, Brandon

[^Lele^]

First off thank you!

Did a post get removed? The only information I have gathered so far is to not trust everything I see or hear, use https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY4MAX to fact check and inform my self on what I have learned. Saw a lot of posts referring to a long winded and dry reply that might have been confusing but it seems to be removed maybe? I am not scared of dense homework to get a good ground to start walking on, but I also understand the value of "KISS" keep it simple stupid.

Thinking back I should have asked more simple and focused questions and maybe would have gotten a resource in that vain. I am just looking for a good baseline of information and processes to start with so I am not developing bad habits or just spamming the render button in hopes of improvement without the actual knowledge to troubleshoot it myself. I know everything is contextual and there isn't one master setting or parameter that just makes the render sing.

The best resource I have gotten into on this type of work has been BlenderGuru. Even though most of his stuff in based around blender, the concepts and base knowledge seem to overlap into Max and Vray. Especially his series on the artistic side of rendering and composition that a lot of people miss out on, imperfection is perfection! Sure its not how to use the program or anything like that, but its great for understanding material creation and building out scenes. Along with the more artistic side, which I have more knowledge in but can see how you lose some of that thought process diving deep into the parameters and setting up scene in programs like Vray. I bet you all know of him hah!

What Glorybound said about lumens and understanding photography is great, along with telling me to use the physical camera to drive my lighting has helped a lot with my exploration. Also like I said before keeping it simple and taking smaller bites is a great thing to hear from someone who is farther along. I am hundred or zero kind of guy so its hard for me to step back and take it slower, it is also hard for me to do that because I just don't know what skills or knowledge to value at this stage or my learning. I know the interface and basic knowledge of what each parameter means, but not how they inner play with each other and how they drive one another.

I wont be stopped by such things, I respect the footwork all of you have put into your work and processes. I feel like I am cheating by even asking for help seeing how hard this, and must have been to learn even five years ago!

My confusion still probability lies within a lack of knowledge and experience, along with looking at to many different sources. I think I am blending to many resources in my process and they conflict, such as using the Vray exposure settings in the environment tab to drive lighting instead of the physical camera exposure ( which to me makes the most sense ). The whole don't listen to anyone but listen to me thing was confusing at first but I understand the truth to that comment. Also just comparing what I am creating to the masterful work out there, without even knowing how much of it was Vray driven vs post processing vs high quality modeling. That probably doesn't really help.

Taking your advice and using choasgroup docs to fact check what I learn and to educate myself, along with the course ware that is provided there as well.

I know I am asking very broad questions and I apologize for doing so!

Cheers, Brandon

Oh, you asked the right questions, in the right way, into the right place.
I on the other had had been too generic: this link is half-hidden in the top right of the nav bar:

https://docs.chaosgroup.com/category/courseware

Specifically for Max:
https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/CWVRAYMAX

I think you will find most of your answers there, and you'll then be free to discuss what isn't clear in this very forum.
This thread started off oddly enough, have fun digging in!

[Brandon Blair]

Oh, you asked the right questions, in the right way, into the right place.
I on the other had had been too generic: this link is half-hidden in the top right of the nav bar:

https://docs.chaosgroup.com/category/courseware

Specifically for Max:
https://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/CWVRAYMAX

I think you will find most of your answers there, and you'll then be free to discuss what isn't clear in this very forum.
This thread started off oddly enough, have fun digging in!

Ah! Cheers man. Thank you.

[glorybound]

My post probably wasn't written well and you have my apologies. I saw your post hadn't had any comments, so I wanted to give you some feedback. There are some brilliant people on this site, Lele being one of them. There is great value in almost everyone's contributions, however, you might get buried in the detail. The software has gotten a lot more user-friendly and although most posts are still correct, many are not relevant, since the software has evolved. If you want to get under the hood and turn every bolt, you have come to the right place .

[Brandon Blair]

My post probably wasn't written well and you have my apologies. I saw your post hadn't had any comments, so I wanted to give you some feedback. There are some brilliant people on this site, Lele being one of them. There is great value in almost everyone's contributions, however, you might get buried in the detail. The software has gotten a lot more user-friendly and although most posts are still correct, many are not relevant, since the software has evolved. If you want to get under the hood and turn every bolt, you have come to the right place .

No worries man! Thanks for the advice, I am sure we will have contact again soon. Cheers.