Chaos Vantage - Animation Fees

[clyde_jacobsen]

Has anybody started using Vantage as their main animation workflow/pipeline? I'm trying to preemptively look at fair rates (for both me and the client), using real-time as my primary animation output. I don't feel it is fair to be charging the same amount because the render process is so much quicker, but I also don't want to shortchange myself and neither do I want to set a bad expectation/precedent for the industry as a whole. Any thoughts on the matter?

[glorybound]

Great question. Someone will always undercut to get the job, and software like Vanatge will allow people to do that. It is you telling a story, working with excellent materials, lighting, and composition. I think we need to sell our work based on the quality, and not the speed at which we do it. I mean, do you lower your rate because you got a faster computer? Do you lower your rate because you are good and fast with experience? It is an opportunity to make more money by charging the same, and doing it faster. Over 20+ years of doing this work, it has gotten easier over time, and I don't value my work less, I value it more.

[fixeighted]

My opinion....hmm

Vantage is still just another tool.

Rendering overall, along with associated tech has all changed almost beyond recognition from what it was only a few years ago. This acceleration and innovation will continue.

It puts everyone, almost without exception, in a very tricky situation, so yes, a great question that does not have a simple answer.

I think that, in a very good way, it puts incredibly powerful tech into the hands of people who have may have little to no learned skills in the area. This is very democratic
and so very welcome in my opinion. Increasingly it is open source or at least in many areas affordable.

You still gotta have some chops though...abilities which aren't so easily gained. The likes of bespoke modeling solutions, client facing communication, problem solving, project management etc., etc. (long list).

So, charge, as Bobby said, at least as much as before, then do more in the time saved. Or charge as much and do less...work/life balance dudes!

[glorybound]

People also function very much in fear. Every time there is a movement in someones industry, they read all the sky is falling posts, and many close shop. When Revit came along, people said that we will all be out of work, because they can do their own renderings in-house. I get so many projects from developers, real estate agents, and home owners because what the architect provided was of poor quality and they can’t use it. Just yesterday a graphic designer sent me a $3000 still that looked like something I was doing in the late 90s. She said that she needed something much better. Like I have previously mentioned 15 years ago. With Revit, all we get is more bad renderings, which will make ours look so much better.

Remember when Chaos launched V-Ray for SketchUp? The chatter was the industry would never be the same; even the hobbyist could render high-quality renderings using V-Ray. Realtime ray trace isn’t new and since it has been out, not much has changed. Again, I get a lot of work from architects who invested in real time and they can’t produce anything worth using in-house. Not that they can’t, they just can’t invest the time to get proficient.

I used to pour concrete. The first few years we dug trenches by hand. As we grew, we add things to make our jobs easier. What we didn’t do is lower our price.

[clyde_jacobsen]

Appreciate the feedback, definitely some food for thought. I am finding it difficult to manage a client's expectations, especially when the thought behind my work sometimes is "just press the F13 button" or "get AI to do it". I think (in my case at least) its a case of either re-evaluating how much to deliver for the current price or keeping the same price, whilst highlighting the speedier output.

Thanks again for joining the conversation

[philip kelly]

I have to say, good discussion.
I have been adding the animation with the over-all package now for a few months and adding an amount as an extra to the original agreed fee for the animation.
Not as much as before, stupidly on my part, but clients are coming back to the architects happy and asking for more work to be done because of it and also the speed at which it can be produced.
Vray and proxies and Vantage make a very smooth and easy animation process, and if you plan your model from the start to be a fast loading and not too heavy a poly count, the project I find flows.

So I am charging but not as much as I had a number of years ago.
A week for an animation can now to done in a day with the right hardware. Tech has moved on.
A personal opinion, and I am open to being told the opposite...........

[glorybound]

That hardware and software costs money. I just dropped $1800 on a 4090 GTX, which is a fortune for many people. Because you can do it faster, doesn’t make you less valuable.

That rendering you are doing for the architect, they are doubling what you charge them and charging it back to their client. They hire you, not because they could do it, but don’t have the time. They are hiring you because they can’t do it. The developer, he could make millions off of your images. The real estate company can save many thousands in interest by selling a property before it is built. You can save the home-owner a life long headache of painting their house the wrong color, which would cost many thousand to redo.

Animations is another beast. Now, if you are moving a camera around a building, sure, it is easy. I cringe when I see these one minute boring 360 animations. Do some cinematography, which you can charge for, because you took the time to learn how to do it. Just mastering the software gives you value. Do you realize people pay $30,000 to learn 3DS MAX? There is a 3D modeling school within walking distance of me. Learning cinematography at a university can cost you 100 grand, easy.

Don't ask yourself how much lower you should charge, but how much more time you can spend creating art instead of waiting on your computer.. I spent about an hour today getting some dappled light to fall just right. Could you tell me why? Because I had more time because my proof renderings were faster with my new hardware.

A few weeks ago, we were talking on this forum about hardware and justifying a $5000 processor. A point was, this person invested $15 grand in his latest PC so he can work part time, making just as much money as he was with his slower PC. What he wasn’t thinking was should he charge less because he can render faster; that is stinking thinking.

[glorybound]

I once saw some guys work and it was beautiful. I asked what it would cost for him to color-grade a project I was working in. It was double what I was charging my client for the whole project. Another time I looked for some modeling help and again it would have cost more to get things modeled than I was charging my client for everything. I was doing an animation, I was having trouble with, and again I reached out to someone. He was good, and he quoted 3X what I was charging my client. Think of all the tasks that you had to master to get where you are. You are an interior designer, a stager, a lighting expert, a photograher, an animator, a story teller, a modeler, a color-grader... you are valuable! Charge for your work, goshdarnit!

[suzanne_doherty]

For me, Vantage is all about speed. I can light a scene 10x faster than vray, give the client multiple options at the draft stages, and then produce final work quickly. That speed is where you have an advantage over others, and a good client will see that, and perhaps see you as a MORE valuable to them. The fact you've not got rendering costs means there's more margin for you.
It wont last forever, poeple will catch up. Make hay whilst the sun shines!

[glorybound]

I just had someone today respond to my quote that he requested. He asked for a dozen stills and a 1-minute animation. I quoted him the stills, and a per second fee for the animation. This bozo replies with, “we decided not to do the stills and just go with the animation”. People will take you for what they can, so charge what you are worth and hold you ground.

I have concluded that all these $100-$300 rendering companies on Facebook are making money harvesting and selling information. They are showing these incredible beautiful renderings, and for $100-$200. If you fill out the form for more information, it asks for a lot of personal stats, the stats that people pay for. Monthly I get a spam email to buy a list of architects in my areas. I wonder where these email addresses and addresses are coming from?

Don’t fall for it; they are scams in more than one way. Don’t be pressured to lower your rates, afraid you won’t get work; these people can’t possibly make a living doing $100 renderings. I saw one the other day with this awesome animation. The animations that take a team a log to create. I dug into it, and the address is a run-down apartment in Illinois.

Okay, I pretty much highjacked this thread, I am sorry. I just get so many emails and PMs about pricing.