VRayDecal works even if it is hidden. Why?

[oguzbirgoren]

Hi, I've realised that decals are being rendered even they are hidden? Can I ask why this is important? Why this is a feature?. Please let me know the reason behind this. ?

if it's the problem of visual representation of the decal blocking the product surely you can add a "don't show decal wire " property
Alternatively you can add "render Vraydecals even they are hidden" checkbox in global settings. if you think it's a good idea.
Or you can add a custom checkbox in Vray properties to say that selected decal can be rendered even if hidden


I have multiple product sets in same scene all with different decals associated with each product variations.
Now with the latest nightly update My scene renders all the decals in the scene even they are hidden.
( (*) V-Ray, VRayDecal: VRayDecals should work even if they are hidden; (VMAX-12970)
after V-Ray for 3ds Max (since build/31862 to build/31865))

Can you please revert this as it doesn't make any sense to me at all..
It's really not fun to select all decals that I don't want and turn off their enabled values. Even if I do it via maxscript.
I have a tidy scene with everything separated to layers and hiding layers makes the decals rendered even if I don't need them.
They are hidden on purpose they shouldn't render. Why decals are treated as if they are crucial elements like Lights.

Thanks

[matanov]

Since you are using a layer-based workflow (with hiding/unhiding) - what about if we add a global switch for rendering hidden V-Ray objects like we have for lights?

[Joelaff]

Since you are using a layer-based workflow (with hiding/unhiding) - what about if we add a global switch for rendering hidden V-Ray objects like we have for lights?

Are there other VRay objects that render when hidden?

I can't stand ANYTHING rendering when hidden. I get why it is there for lights, and I would rather lights just have a hide form viewport option. But that little eyeball should mean no render...

[oguzbirgoren]

Since you are using a layer-based workflow (with hiding/unhiding) - what about if we add a global switch for rendering hidden V-Ray objects like we have for lights?

I believe it must be a very common practice among all 3dsmax users that they rely on layers and hiding stuff that they don't want have it rendered.
I do understand the point to have rendering or enabling hidden lights but decal is practically a scene object class feature.

I believe adding a global switch for rendering hidden V-Ray decals or V-ray objects would be great but please make sure it's turned off by default.

Currently being able to turn off decals that are not visible is by going through them one by one and turning off their enabled status checkbox. Manually or by script. It's no where practical.

Can we have this in the next nightlies? I honestly think this as a bug. It's hardly a feature.
Thanks

[^Lele^]

I believe it must be a very common practice among all 3dsmax users that they rely on layers and hiding stuff that they don't want have it rendered.

Not really: it's common for people with a CAD background, which aren't the entirety of our user base, by far.
And even among those, everyone has slightly different approaches and expectations, as layers tie in with a myriad other Max systems (scene states, named selections, linking and influences, etc etc)

I honestly think this as a bug. It's hardly a feature.

Toggling an "on" state off is completely viable a method, one used far and wide throughout Max.
Decal is a helper node which deals with shading, and has the potential to have to deal with a number of linked properties (distance textures, multitex, etc etc.).
A number of workflows would be perfectly fine with having the decals hidden but rendering (if you have 100s of them, for example, you may well want your view decluttered.).

Can we have this in the next nightlies?

An option is the best that can be offered, but it will have to wait until there are the resources to get it done: this is a very minor workflow issue with easy workarounds available.

[oguzbirgoren]

Hey ^Lele^

That's kind of a thing that I'm actually pointing out. This workflow, having hidden features/objects being rendered is not a common practice for max users. if it's something that can be rendered, and when it's hidden it shouldn't get rendered.
For about 20 of years Vray has Lights has an elevated feature to toggle their use while rendering.

VrayDecal is a new feature I don't think you should jump to a conclusion until it's matured enough. I understand that you're not using this feature heavily like I do.

If I'm not wrong VrayDecal has been added in Vray 5. And since it was out it didn't render while it was hidden.
And you can see below that this "Should work while hidden" feature has recently changed with Vray 6.1. See below when this has changed/amended.
It seems like this has changed one of the nightlies after vray 6 has been released
So I honestly think it's not a well thought out feature to add to Vray decal and I raise a flag that this is wrong. You can go against it but I'm trying to raise a point here. There should be a workaround embedded in the system.

V-Ray for 3ds Max (since build/31862 to build/31865)
Modified features:
-V-Ray, VRayDecal: VRayDecals should work even if they are hidden; (VMAX-12970)

I simply just don't get why you're very much against this. I'll continue work with a pre and post script as a workaround. But this is not the way it should behave.

I understand Vray decal could have other uses and influences in the future but even VrayLights has the opportunity to toggle that "render hidden" feature.
I agree that a number of workflows could be fine with having the decals hidden but Vray should provide a workflow that other uses do not whish to have.
I can also see that this is a minor workflow issue from your perspective. But for me it is major and other product viz artist like me who happen to use Vray decals on different products that have to coexist in the same scene file on the course of the project.

I see this decal feature working like a VrayClipper or VrayFur, VrayVolumeGrid, VrayPlane, a render time feature (all elements in Create-Geometry-Vray section in max) all of them do not get processed in render if they are hidden except VrayDecal.
I'm trying to raise the question why it has been later changed that VrayDecals should work even if they are hidden.
I'd be really pleased if someone who knows the answer to this. If not I'd love to have a global toggle to change this feature off.

Alternatively devs can add another checkbox in Vray decal object to participate in render even hidden or not.

I don't agree with you when you say it has an easy workarounds available. There aren't.
Possible workarounds that are depending on how many decals you have in the scene are like this.

- For a regular user you can either have to delete the Vray decals that you don't use (that are hidden) before rendering (Which is out of the question)

- You can turn off enabled property of each decal object manually before render. If you have 30-40 of them like I have which is not practical. We need a global toggle.

- Alternatively you can script it out like I did. I wrote a pre-render script to turn off decals that are hidden or the layer that they are part of is hidden and a re-enabler script post render.
You should agree that it is doable but not the simplest workaround for an average artist.

I strongly believe this update has to be reverted as it was since the beginning.
Thanks

[oguzbirgoren]

For those who are struggling with the same issue.
You can grab the Pre-Render script that turns off hidden decals or hidden decals whose layers are hidden.
And the Post-Render script enables all decals back again.
Hope this helps artist having the same issue until devs can fix this problem
_PRE_and_POST-RENDER_Turnoff_HiddenDecals.zip

[matanov]

We'll add an option and bring back the default behavior. Can't promise a timeframe though.

[fixeighted]

I heartily agree that a hidden object should not be renderable when the only other option is to delete said object. That seems wrong.
I do all sorts of stuff....archvis, products, abstract, motion design etc...all very varied, and can't remember a time when I'd ever wanted to have hidden objects rendered.

I actually didn't know this change had occurred and am currently doing both a complex animation where decals will feature, though not always, plus bottle products which require on/off/altered options, meaning this could greatly impact
my organisation of scenes and could be a real headache.
Specifically, the bottles all need a quite complex lighting set up that is, within the scene, different on each frame, therefore the ability to not render hidden lights is invaluable.
Decals need to be the same as any other scene object in that sense.
A script won't help me in these situations....I'd have to have separate files for the smallest of changes, which seems madness to me.

Whilst I can understand the 'render hidden lights' rationale; having potentially thousands of lights in an archvis scene cluttering up a viewport for example, I don't think that decals fall into this same category of use.

[oguzbirgoren]

We'll add an option and bring back the default behavior back. Can't promise a timeframe though.

Thank you very much for understanding Peter. Looking forward for the update.

[matanov]

Thank you very much for understanding Peter. Looking forward for the update.

The option is added in the latest official release (6.1.1).

[Joelaff]

Thank you again.

[oguzbirgoren]

This is very good news Thank you matanov