Maxwell and Vray / huh?

[jacksc02]

nicely put vlado

[RePlay]

Just out of curiosity Vlado, How does copyright and patent work with rendering software? I am aware of Catmull technology being protected, so what does it take to stop a good idea being ripped by other companies?

Is it pretty much a race to do it FIRST?

Thanks.

[vlado]

I am aware of Catmull technology being protected, so what does it take to stop a good idea being ripped by other companies?

In short, nothing. In most countries, you cannot patent a (mathematical) idea, formula or a pure algorithm - patents are only reserved for actual hardware devices and processes. Even in those countries that do allow software patents, proving that a software patent is breached or not depends largely on who does the proof (or has more money ). Further on, even if you have a patent, filing an actual lawsuit is an expensive and slow process with an uncertain outcome.

In general, I don't like the idea of software patents. This is because most algorithms follow from common sense logic or from other, already developed algorithms. There is no great difficulty invlolved in reseraching them (compared to the resources needed for researching a new medicine, for example). To patent software is like trying to prevent people from thinking.

Nevertheless, with V-Ray, we have been very careful to avoid using anything that may be claimed as copyrighted or patented by others. For the sun/sky, we explictly asked the authors of the reference papers if it is ok to implement those algorithms.

Best regards,
Vlado

[cpnichols]

I am aware of Catmull technology being protected, so what does it take to stop a good idea being ripped by other companies?

In short, nothing. In most countries, you cannot patent a (mathematical) idea, formula or a pure algorithm - patents are only reserved for actual hardware devices and processes. Even in those countries that do allow software patents, proving that a software patent is breached or not depends largely on who does the proof (or has more money ). Further on, even if you have a patent, filing an actual lawsuit is an expensive and slow process with an uncertain outcome.

In general, I don't like the idea of software patents. This is because most algorithms follow from common sense logic or from other, already developed algorithms. There is no great difficulty invlolved in reseraching them (compared to the resources needed for researching a new medicine, for example). To patent software is like trying to prevent people from thinking.

Nevertheless, with V-Ray, we have been very careful to avoid using anything that may be claimed as copyrighted or patented by others. For the sun/sky, we explictly asked the authors of the reference papers if it is ok to implement those algorithms.

Best regards,
Vlado

Interesting but relevant side note. So I am assuming that this means that ChaosGroup has not filed any patents of their own?

Also keep in mind that this does not mean that software patent lawesuits are not unwinnable even across international boundries. Pixar successfully sued Entropy and put them out of business. Can you believe Pixar owns the rights to Stochastic Sampling? That is almost as bad as me owning the rights to random numbers.... I'm with you Vlado, it is stupid.

[Frances]

...Pixar successfully sued Entropy and put them out of business. Can you believe Pixar owns the rights to Stochastic Sampling? That is almost as bad as me owning the rights to random numbers.... I'm with you Vlado, it is stupid.

Was it the raytracer issue? Didn't Gritz develop the basis for BMRT and what was later Entropy while employed by Pixar for their productions? I think you can't develop hunks of code while under someone's employ and on their payroll and then take it out on your own to develop a commercial product. On the other hand, I remember Jensen mentioning that a company he had brought his photon mapping algorithms to tried to establish them as their own and prohibit him from further using them. I have my suspicions as to what company that was. But he was rightfully outraged in my opinion.

[vlado]

Interesting but relevant side note. So I am assuming that this means that ChaosGroup has not filed any patents of their own?

Nope, we have not - although we probably have enough material for several.

Pixar successfully sued Entropy and put them out of business.

Although the original claims of Pixar included patent issues, it turned out that Entropy was not based on the Pixar patent. This caused Pixar to change its claims. The lawsuit never got to the end, as the issue was settled between the parties directly.

Can you believe Pixar owns the rights to Stochastic Sampling?

Luckily, we can use past tense here. The original patent was filed in 1985, and we are now 2006 - more than 20 years have passed since then. A curious fact about this patent is that it was rejected serveral times before finally being aproved. Also, Pixar missed one of the fee payments, and the patent was terminated (around 1994, I think) but was reinstated after that.

Best regards,
Vlado

[Morbid Angel]

haha...guys, this is redicules. Do your renderings make pretty images. Who cares about the patents? I dont. Why should you?
Vray is out there, so as others and they are fine. Be done with it and move on.
I think this topic needs to be locked.

[studioDIM]

LOL Dmitry, i'd normally be with you, and axe it, but for such a good one i'd propose a title change, and let's get on with it.
I'm hearing such interesting things...


Lele

[Morbid Angel]

lol

[Neilg]

haha...guys, this is redicules. Do your renderings make pretty images. Who cares about the patents? I dont. Why should you?

i think you'd start to care if someone put chaos out of business, or stopped them from having a physical camera/sky. (this is bollocks, so dont call me up on it )

I'm finding this pretty interesting regardless, the last time i was involved in a software patents discussion was when talking about language/algorithm based music programs, its suprising how similar everyones attitudes are.

[Morbid Angel]

well ofcourse I would care if chaose went out of business. But, would you or I be able to do something about it ? no.

[Neilg]

I dont see why not being able to take part or make a change to something should mean I cant learn about it.

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but i bet he had a whale of a time before he died.

[studioDIM]

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but i bet he had a whale of a time before he died.

TAAAAAG!!!!

Lele