Ideas on making V-Ray's sampling UI more intuitive.

[vlado]

Vlado I understand it's got to be difficult to keep everyone happy. It's too bad there's not an option that would let you toggle between basic settings and advanced settings so the user could choose what level they wanted to work with.

I'm not sure what you mean? There are the Default/Advanced/Expert views already for the render settings. We are considering expanding this to lights and materials too, and moving more stuff from the default view to Advanced/Expert.

Besides (and I can assure you this is really the case ) existing users will still switch to the advanced settings and continue as they are used to The hope is that new users won't pick this up.

Best regards,
Vlado

[jstrob]

I'm not sure what you mean? There are the Default/Advanced/Expert views already for the render settings. We are considering expanding this to lights and materials too, and moving more stuff from the default view to Advanced/Expert.

Best regards,
Vlado

May I suggest you should make a version of vray specifically for the Mac type of user with only one button: "render". And anohter version for people who work with a thigh deadlines where all the experts options are there without having to press many buttons all the time to see all the presets. I don't like the idea of having this system (default/advanced/expert) all over the place.

[vlado]

May I suggest you should make a version of vray specifically for the Mac type of user with only one button: "render". And anohter version for people who work with a thigh deadlines where all the experts options are there without having to press many buttons all the time to see all the presets. I don't like the idea of having this system (default/advanced/expert) all over the place.

No, I don't like the idea of having two separate versions either Besides, for SP1, you will have the ability save a default preset for V-Ray, which includes the state of the UI switchers, so you can customize it as you want. You can do this even now using a maxstart file, but it seems most users either don't know how to set this up, or don't bother.

Best regards,
Vlado

[jstrob]

No, I don't like the idea of having two separate versions either Besides, for SP1, you will have the ability save a default preset for V-Ray, which includes the state of the UI switchers, so you can customize it as you want. You can do this even now using a maxstart file, but it seems most users either don't know how to set this up, or don't bother.

Best regards,
Vlado

Hi Vlado, sorry to ask for this again! I personally use a maxstart file and also presets with RPManager. But if everytime I create a material or light I have to click on those expert buttons, that makes a lot of clicks at the end of day and it's not good for my shoulder and wrist pain!

Having the abillity to save a default presets for all of those would be a great solution. But I still don't understand why someone would buy vray if it's not to use the expert features...

[vlado]

But if everytime I create a material or light I have to click on those expert buttons

Hehe, I know that and it's not what we will be doing; the idea is for these to be sticky like the main renderer switchers.

But I still don't understand why someone would buy vray if it's not to use the expert features...

There are plenty of other useful things in V-Ray beyond sampling control

Best regards,
Vlado

[davision]

Vlado, I feel sorry that you always having to explain that tweaking settings is not necessary with Vray. People often complain about it and you've said time and time again that there are simple ways to avoid it which I know is true. I'd suggest making a Wiki or a sticky post that you can send people to when this subject comes up again and again. It will save you a lot of time going forward.

That said, I'm glad we are able to fine-tune settings. I like being able to optimize the minutiae because I don't have a huge render farm. I think you are wise to have the Beginner/Expert switches now and I hope you continue with them for the indefinite future. Power and ease-of-use are nearly always mutually exclusive. Usually software leans strongly one way or the other. I prefer having both methods at my disposal.

Thank you for your tireless tech support.

[piotrus3333]

I don't see a point in putting any work into interface. Its been like that for years, everybody got used to it. and now you have min shading rate, max ray intensity and ability to unlink aa and dmc - vray was always about total control - now even more than ever. it probably doesn't have nice interface of 3rd gen ipod shuffle (literally one button) but there must be a reason for it being such a popular engine.

if newcomers need easy - vray quick settings - a couple of sliders, looks easy enough (haven't tried those though)

if you know how things work but need simple approach - go with min shading rate. only two things to control.

and if you like tweaking stuff - well - you have quite a playground.

is there any other engine with such a flexibility?

[Nicinus]

I'm glad this is being discussed, I've been using Vray for about 7 years and although I love it I get tired of all the constant changing and balancing of settings that goes on. I've always wondered why these things aren't automated and why there setup as they are, how changing one setting can have such a dramatic impact on render times while others seem to do nothing. It seem like the engine is overly complicated on purpose and people take a lot of pride in the fact that they've mastered all of it's quirks. I know a lot of people would like to simplify things, one of reasons Corona's getting so much attention right now is because it's pretty easy to operate and I really want to see Vray embrace this. Just my 2 cents.

O'boy. This statement is so true that I almost get tears in my eyes.

[jstrob]

O'boy. This statement is so true that I almost get tears in my eyes.

Maybe the tears in your eyes prevented you from reading the answer to this from Vlado!

"IT IS NOT NEEDED TO PLAY WITH THE SETTINGS to such extreme confusion"

[RockinAkin]

This thread has gotten a little derailed from my original post, so let me reiterate a few things to hopefully refocus the point I was trying to make.

The goal here is to propose an ELEGANT solution to simplifying V-Ray's sampling UI to make it clear and easy to use for users of ALL experience levels. I believe this CAN be done - as my original mockup shows quite clearly that it is possible to have LESS user inputs while offering the same amount of overall control and functionality. It replaces confusing terms like 'min shade rate', 'min samples', 'adaptive amount', etc, with a simple unified MIN, MAX, and Noise Threshold for both the Image Sampler and DMC Sampler. Anyone can learn it in a day, and the resulting sampling is always intuitive and predictable.

We can ALL agree there is a problem with the level of complexity in the current UI. This has been proven time and time again by the number of questions that are posted here, the number of emails I get daily asking me to help clear up confusion, and the number of studios I've worked at where many of the artists don't have a full understanding of why their settings are set the way they are.

And ignoring sampling settings is simply not an acceptable response. Tweakability is one of V-Ray's main strengths as a biased raytracer, and render times are VERY important in a real-world production environment. For example on the last show at Blur we had a studio-wide target of 2 hours per HD frame - these are scenes with big environments, multiple characters, displacement, hair, dof, moblur, etc. Being able to optimize render time is VITAL to the continued use of V-Ray in an VFX environment.

So I welcome anyone to elaborate on why my proposed solution isn't ideal compared to what we have now - or propose their own solution that provides clarity, feedback, intuitive results, less input, same amount of control, and ease of use for beginners and experts alike.

[jstrob]

Wow Akin I second your post entirely! Couldn't be expressed more clearly!

I hope your proposition will find its way in vray one day. For the time being I feel like I have to imagine your interface while setting the current vray settings.

[piotrus3333]

probably a lot of users would welcome those changes. but rest of them would be seriously pissed. isn't min shading rate enough of a shortcut? I started using it lately and its working great. sure, you still need to employ some understanding of the math behind vray not to go to 16 from 8 but to 64 or 128 but your great calculator helps with that ( maybe it should be simply included in ui). I'm using it every time I'm leaving save zone of my most used image sampler values.

have you tried those new quick settings? have enybody tried?

maybe it's not the ideal ui but it's too late to change things. well - there is one little thing - we have version 3.0 and its high time global subdivs multiplier would be named correctly as global samples multiplier.

[jstrob]

probably a lot of users would welcome those changes. but rest of them would be seriously pissed.

If someone is pissed it's because he does not understand how vray calculates. Why would you be pissed because we make things more clear and understandable?

If someone prefers not to understand what he is doing and he doesn't mind about render times he could be pissed off, yes.

But could some some people be annoyed because for years they didn't think a render time could be lowered by increasing subdivs? Could someone be annnoyed because some settings can be changed without affecting the result at all?

there are 2 ways of seeing the problem:

A- Or we want an interface that shows the user what vray really does and the user can understand what it does and so the user has absolute control on exact number of samplings for everything and thus we can more easily get the lower render time possible for every scene. When we change a setting we know exactly what it does and can understand rapidly what we are doing at all time. But we have to understand how to balance sampling and what each type of sampling is better at (GI, glossy ref refrac, dof, mblur, shadow, or sss)

B- Or we want an interface that hides everything from the user. With some settings that try to balance samplings for us but at the same times do calculations that we can't understand easily so if we want to really get the lower rendertime for every scene it's almost impossible to do without being a genius like akin and being able to do some advance reverse engineering and create his own calculator. And when we discover that some scenes have unacceptable rendertime using this method we add another setting that make it more complicated. The user doesn't need to understand how to balance sampling and what every sampler is better at, but you still need a lot of trial and error to maybe figure something that works 80% of the time.


I think we need less time to learn what's needed to use option A than to do the trial and error that we need for option B.

And only option A allows the user to find optimal rendertime in all situations. (that, in real life, means sometimes lowering a rendrertime from 8 hours to 2 hours.)

It's never too late to do the right thing.

[piotrus3333]

what I had in mind was being annoyed by changing interface people got used to. all those who know how things work.
If someone prefers not to understand? I've just had a look at quick settings - it's all there, 3 sliders and 2 drop down menus. add some hdri, mat library and you can start rendering with vray in no time. I even think we should do some experiments - grabbing old scene, reseting all the mat/light samples, merging to fresh 3.0 scene and go with quick settings. results could be interesting - and may help proving a point that you don't have to tweak the setting so much to get decent results. or the other way around.

A or B? - it boils down to simple business decision - putting work into redesigning ui or polishing 3.0 - phones need intuitive interface, top rendering engine does not (and if you take a look at the quality of tech support here - it almost feels wrong to complain about anything). It comes with a manual though - it might not be easy but after a while you can grasp all the math behind it. not everything have to be accessible in a day. It's complex engine, takes time to be comfortable with it. I remember my early days: image sampler 1-4, wrong gamma input, all those 15h renders and gazylion of confusing switches. years of trial and error but thats how you master stuff. nowadays you have access to all those tutorials and articles - it's not that hard anymore, all the knowledge is there to grab.

[jstrob]

what I had in mind was being annoyed by changing interface people got used to. all those who know how things work.
If someone prefers not to understand? I've just had a look at quick settings - it's all there, 3 sliders and 2 drop down menus. add some hdri, mat library and you can start rendering with vray in no time. I even think we should do some experiments - grabbing old scene, reseting all the mat/light samples, merging to fresh 3.0 scene and go with quick settings. results could be interesting - and may help proving a point that you don't have to tweak the setting so much to get decent results. or the other way around.

A or B? - it boils down to simple business decision - putting work into redesigning ui or polishing 3.0 - phones need intuitive interface, top rendering engine does not (and if you take a look at the quality of tech support here - it almost feels wrong to complain about anything). It comes with a manual though - it might not be easy but after a while you can grasp all the math behind it. not everything have to be accessible in a day. It's complex engine, takes time to be comfortable with it. I remember my early days: image sampler 1-4, wrong gamma input, all those 15h renders and gazylion of confusing switches. years of trial and error but thats how you master stuff. nowadays you have access to all those tutorials and articles - it's not that hard anymore, all the knowledge is there to grab.

You are totally right.

And if vlado choose option A or B don't matter for me and all other vray's experienced users, I will absolutely stick with vray cause anyway I already did both the trial and error and understanding what's going on under the hood. but we are just trying to suggest how the next users to learn vray could avoid loosing all the time that we lost.

Also chaosgroups has all the numbers that we don't have. They know who is really their mass consumer target (archviz, print, hobbyist, fx artist etc), how many they are etc. So they will take their decisions based on all those numbers. Also there are maybe a few tricks still under the hood that even Akin didn't put in its calculator (that was made only to show the relation between image sampler and DMC sampler) so we never know. For example importance sampling is controlled by the adaptive amount, which the calculator doesn't talk about. How is that importance sampling exactly affecting the samples no one knows except Vlado.