Ok it´s 16. June today

[TRGraphics]

Elliot, did you even bother to read what richard said? He said very clearly that they are not using it. So what good is it even if he does have it? Just so he can say he does and make the other kids jealous!

I believe the DR issue is a valid one for max 6. But, vlado has stated very clearly that it will be in the final release of 1.5. Whenever that might be. I am now using the max version and it works great with the fix. So I can wait until they get as many of the bugs fixed as possible before they release 1.5

The beta version that is being bug tested now is not ready for production use
thats why its still being tested. How much simplier can it be!!!! Its only good for testing for bugs right now, jeez!! Lets see, can I think of an even more basic and clear way to say this? No............I can't.

I'm sure all the people doing the bug testing are professional users. Therefore they must make a living at this and can't afford to use the 1.45 version for production for fear of a major unknown crash. It's being done in what little spare time they have and I for one appreciate their efforts. I don't have the time to do the testing that is needed or I certainly would.

To get the the test version so you can just play with it is not why it was released. It was released for a very serious reason. To fix any bugs that most of us will complain about if they are not fixed before the release.

If you want to play, get a ball and go outside and hit a few.

Tony

[Elliot]

Elliot, did you even bother to read what richard said? He said very clearly that they are not using it. So what good is it even if he does have it? Just so he can say he does and make the other kids jealous!

I believe the DR issue is a valid one for max 6. But, vlado has stated very clearly that it will be in the final release of 1.5. Whenever that might be. I am now using the max version and it works great with the fix. So I can wait until they get as many of the bugs fixed as possible before they release 1.5

The beta version that is being bug tested now is not ready for production use
thats why its still being tested. How much simplier can it be!!!! Its only good for testing for bugs right now, jeez!! Lets see, can I think of an even more basic and clear way to say this? No............I can't.

I'm sure all the people doing the bug testing are professional users. Therefore they must make a living at this and can't afford to use the 1.45 version for production for fear of a major unknown crash. It's being done in what little spare time they have and I for one appreciate their efforts. I don't have the time to do the testing that is needed or I certainly would.

To get the the test version so you can just play with it is not why it was released. It was released for a very serious reason. To fix any bugs that most of us will complain about if they are not fixed before the release.

If you want to play, get a ball and go outside and hit a few.

Tony

Tony......

believe me, the last thing I want to do is "play" with software just for the hell of it. Please don't mistake me for some kid with more time on his hands than he knows what to do with as nothing could be further from the truth.

It makes me laugh (or cry, not sure really) when these "bugs" are talked about. You don't think the fact that I can't render scenes with over 3 to 4 million polys is a bug? The fact is that it is a serious pain in the arse and as I have mentioned already (did you bother to read it by the way?) it has stopped my company from moving over to Vray 100%.

I have no problem with this bug however (all software has limitations).

What I do have a problem with is the constant "goading" of a solution to which I have no access. A solution that was announced in February 2003 and still isn't available.... a solution that "is very nearly finished - probably next week"... a solution that "is just having the very last bugs ironed out".... that is until the next beta feature (DR) goes in & the process starts again.

What I would like is an end to the stringing along. If it is going to take 6 months then just tell us and it is then up to the individual whether that wait is acceptable or not. Constantly telling everyone that "it's nearly finished..." and "it's great btw...." over and over for more than a year is just not fair and certainly isn't honest.

Oh, and I did read what Richard said.... I read it as meaning that he wasn't yet working with the very latest beta, not that he was still working with the last official release. Maybe I was wrong?

Elliot

[egz]

believe me, the last thing I want to do is "play" with software just for the hell of it. Please don't mistake me for some kid with more time on his hands than he knows what to do with as nothing could be further from the truth.

I hope I never lose the desire to just play with software. I still try to find time for this, but it is not always easy with deadlines looming. I'm actually trying to cut down on the number of hours I work every week (50+ on average the past years) so that I can have more time to play

[Da_elf]

I tend to take a different approach. i just throw vray into whatever project im working on. if its got a major bug that stops me from doing that project. i downgrade to the last working build needed and report the bug. Then on my off time i have fun with it and in doing so i poke, push, squeeze and bend vray around many situations to make it break. thats good bug testing. As for the 3-5 million poly limit you keep talking about im still not sure what your scene looks like that it wouldnt render when im sure others here have rendered way past that with lesser builds.

[Geddart]

Hey there, Everybody.

First of all ...i'm one of those 'Fanboys' too, secretly.

Hey egz, You hit the Nail on the Hat when you talked about playing with Software. In my Opinion it's a MUST to keep up to date! And it it's fun too... ...especially when you can shape the product you're working with. What the ChaosGuys created in the last few months is very much of a Fun to play with btw. As others - i had the chance to the new Vray for testing purposes. For all that don't have the new Vray yet and cry about it? I understand You. I'd cry too now i think.

We're totally different People using Vray for many different Reasons. Some use it as Professionals, some for fun only but most of us use it for both reasons. We do Archvis with it or Design, Character Anims or simply Worlds that come through our brains - Vray gives them their Shape. I for my part get my Money with Vray. Vray is directly linked to my Bank Account and i think many of You are in the same Position. Actually Vray was a pretty cheap buy when i think about it. It payed many many times already. I know no other Renderer that renders the Complete Lightsolution for a multimillion Polygon Scene that fast in such a simple and elegant Irradiance Map.When i think Vray 1.5 will be a free Update and Bonus again i just can say: "Thank You, ChaosGuys, i owe you Something." Furthermore Vray brings me Fun when i'm using it. The Fun Factor increases with every version too. I'm curious when we'll reach Realtime. But until then we can be sure Vray gives us the best Tools to make our Worlds look incredible cool. To make it Short: Vray is a very important Factor in our freetime/joblife. It's a Tool that pushes CG and maybe our Careers or even our Lives. Think about it. Vray is a part of my Life. I will Change to Maya when Vray has a Bridge then. It really affects my Future if you will. So Guys! Be a bit nicer to Vladimir and Peter! Stop flaming around and express your feelings like people do - They're also just people. (...although i sometimes think they might be technological advanced Aliens from outer Space.)

@ChaosGroup: Now the other Side. I think public Statements and Informations from You could have been clearer and more honestly. Daily Updates in the early Days and then a few months just Silence with a few hints what's going on - that's rough! And then all the Dates that made us hot - damnit. I'd prefere that They just say "Guy's, it's done when it's done but when it's ready it'll really rock!" 'Something like that. When Vray get's leaked and cracked then - bring out something interesting for legal users too. Otherwise many Users will use cracked Versions and that's not what we want in the end. Look how the Brazil Guys did it. They invented a bloody good Protection that wasn't cracked for months and when it was they released a small Testversion of Brazil named "Rio". That's what i call professional.

We're all affected by Vray. Logically follows one Fact: We all want Vray to get better. We all benefit from a better Vray.
The Problem is the Communication between Users and Programmers. So what can we do? And how can we work together - not against eachother? Well, we have a great community, nice people and cool artists here and they're getting more and more every day. (Cool Pictures the 'Image Uploads' these Days... Furthermore we have genious Programmers that code like Gods sometimes. There are some professional Solutions to make profit with this Situation.

ChaosGroup could for example shut their Doors again and code in silence. Appearently they're pretty good in hammering out new Features in that Situation. We would need some nice things for to drool over from time to time though but finally they'd code Vray secretely. Apperantly this first Way is not enough too convince some Users. It's not enough for some others and me either: We want "Community rendering" in the Future, don't we? So the second way is my Favorite. This is how it could look like:

Consitution: We all try to make Vray better. We could do it professionally. We Users could organize with Forums and Polls to make the process of wishfinding and bugfixing easier and faster. Then even more users should make real suggestions about the Vray Workflow and how they'd like to use it. This was something we Betatesters spend quite lot of time on in the last days and weeks! With good solutions we can convince the ChaosGuys that some Features are smart to integrate at this stage or in this way and we get more controls in our hands to actually shape Vray. No flaming/complaining why something isn't ready yet but professional teamwork that get's us all nearer to our goal. The Users would have to do something for this Opportunity though. They would have to test Versions for bugs and should use their Opportunity for democracy. (The World won't get better only because it rotates.) Certainly - it would get a different Workflow for the ChaosGuys too. They would have to be really honest about Dates and how complicated something is (Distributed Rendering for example) - but i think it would be worth it in the end. I saw an Effect when testing the Internals - ideas to improve it just popped out of my brain when i was testing it. I was not the only one who felt that way. We Beta Users started to collect some thoughts about a possible, better VrayFramebuffer. What dou you guys think about it? We sent everything to Vlado and Peter as a compact PDF. We might see some of our Ideas in the next Vray Versions. This is just a little Example how Users can organize to make Vray better.

I'm 20 and some really cool things happened that let me use this internal Build now. I have the Luck to be a (hopefully ) respected, legal Vray User now. And with even more Luck i had the Chance to play with the new Vray for some Time now. Guys it's not that i don't have things to do but for all this Luck i simply had to thank the ChaosGuys and so i spend some time on that Vray now. It still has some Bugs and Issues but it's very stable and we're approaching our final goal really fast. One thing you complaining People have no Idea is how severe Vray 1.5 will affect our daily work and also our bank accounts. You guys blame us testers for running around as a "Vray Fanboy" - we have some Reasons:In all the Months Chasogroup secretely reworked almost every Feature of Vray and i can tell you Vlado and Peter improved their programming skills since the last time eve more. We really have phantastic new Tools and Solutions in basically all Situations. It "fit's" Everybody. Vray is again the fastest and the smartes Way to "stimulate" Reality. (simulate Reality is not enough you know ) Everything comes nicely toghether now. It's genious in some Areas. Full packed with Features that bring a totally new Workflow for us - actually the List is too long to cover Everything - her are just some of the Features again.


- A cool Vray Framebuffer
...where you can change things in Realtime withough rerenderings again. (Hope they fix the last glitches in the Curves and Levels so they're working properly in HDR - No other Renderer has this feature yet)

- The Fastest GI in a Raytracer
...with the Wonderful, progressive Lightmap (You know a Renderer that has more or better Gi Options? Direct Computation, Irradiance Map, Lightmap, und Photonmapping? Only Vray has this!)

- The rewritten Geometry Core
...much smarter, faster and more scalable this Time. We can render the largest possible Scenes with all those GI Techniques, we can use proxies for that or we use the fastest 3D Displacements in the Renderworld to get Surface Detail.

- Even Faster AntiAliasing
Simple Two Level is rewritten to Adaptive QMC Mode for VrayFur and small Geometry Details.

- New Camera options
New controls for motionblur and DOF, bokeh' Effects - works great with the interactive Exposure in HDR drectly in your Framebuffer

- Layers
Vray finally has Layers and just look what cool Layers we got! GI, Diffuse, Reflections, RawGI, RawLight, Coverage, Sub Pixel Weight, Caustics, Shadows etc etc. They're saveable in HDR.

- A better, faster and easier Interface
...with more Cotrols for the User: Many long awaited goodies like: "global material override", "Fake Highlights", "Opacity Slot" in Vray Material, "simple VrayLight Material", "simple Lighmapping controls", "flipped" VrayLights (finally), "Usable small Map Buttons" (finally), "Surface Priorities", "Color bleeding Controls" and the list goes on....

- Many, many other Enhancements and cool new and usable Features.
VrayPrimitives, VrayToon, Floating License Server, new Manual


What's not working right now is only the distributed Rendering in max6 and some last interface glitches that have to be fixed. Then all of these new things will rush over you'll need some time to handle them all. All the Complainers now will be quiet for some time then first. It will blow us all away. And it's just the Beginning - I think we will get many more Enhancements very fast after the 1.5 Release. There's still much on the List.

Ok, i stop now - this is getting too much and it's too late to continue. Actually i said almost everything that i wanted to. In short it's just. Let's get more professional, let's work on our Comunication and Vray 1.5 will blow you all away - hope we get that all soon Cya Guys.

[RErender]

Very well put, Geddart. I agree our energy is much better served to be used in a positive manner.

[cocolas]

VERY good stuff, Geddart

thanks for sharing that PDF...those ideas are fantanstic
same with the enhancements for the new version.


paul.

[vince_1972]

A big thanks to you, Geddart, for your great explanation

Vince

[Elliot]

I hope I never lose the desire to just play with software. I still try to find time for this, but it is not always easy with deadlines looming. I'm actually trying to cut down on the number of hours I work every week (50+ on average the past years) so that I can have more time to play

egz... lets see how much time you have when you are working 70, 80, 90+ hours a week..... and you have children. I do still have the desire to play with software but there just aren't enough hours in the day any more so all my playing (if you can call it that - finding solutions to new problems is the reality) is done very quickly in the course of the job.

Look..... I think Vray is a great product. It is just unfortunate that for my work (i.e. a full cutaway illustration of an engine) it crashes every time without fail.

At the end of the day all I want is a stable fast raytracer that can handle my scenes..... I don't care at all about most of the new features (DR etc) as they are not relevant to me.

Anyway, that's enough from me on this subject. As someone earlier pointed out, this kind of discussion is not welcomed here as everyone should be grateful for what they have....

Elliot

[egz]

egz... lets see how much time you have when you are working 70, 80, 90+ hours a week..... and you have children. I do still have the desire to play with software but there just aren't enough hours in the day any more so all my playing (if you can call it that - finding solutions to new problems is the reality) is done very quickly in the course of the job.

You said the last thing you'd want to do is "play" with software. I just took your word for it. Good to hear that you haven't lost the desire to play

I sort of understand where you are though: I was working 80+ hours a week around four to eight years back, when I was a partner in a big design studio. I ended up in a continusously stressed out state, barking at everyone around me, and seriously expecting that everyone else should put in as much time as I did. I quit because I didn't want be like that or work that much anymore, plus it was affecting my relationship with Nina. I'm much more happy now working about 50+ hours a week, but I'm still trying to cut down. I would reccomend it to anybody! I guess that's maybe why you have posted the "looking for VRay artists" thread?

[Janus Rölder]

i apologize that im not lobotomized and happy with everything.

but keep in mind i did not say vray sucks.
i only critizise a few points on it´s development that could (imho) be better.

[tom schuelke]

Hi Sascha

realy well said. I think you´ve brought it to the point.

It´s this very strong comunity of Vray, that makes one big point for Vray. Mostly very frendly and helpful.

We should use this. And i am sure, that Chaos and its opend way alway´s to communicate with its users, already has found many impressive way´s to the vray devellopement. "thinking of our vrayfrb pdf, as only one smal example".

and also like you said, yes politics in some point´s, (example Brazil), still could be improved.

by the way, it´s this kind of posts and interactions, that makes you more than just another very good 3D Artist.

Tom

[Da_elf]

hey elliot. Engines have lots of replicated parts like the valves and pistons etc. Have you been using insticate for these items to get the most performance out of vray? just a helpfull thought

[Randy]

Have you been using insticate for these items to get the most performance out of vray? just a helpfull thought

the 3 million poly limit is still there, it does'nt matter if instanced or not, vray crashes with a exception message, thats why it's hard to be patient, the last internal build was able to handle this, but DR did'nt work. And please no comparsions between DR and the max region rendering. Because you can't compare it. Imagine a scene with heavy reflections and geometry in the middle of the scene, now divide it in ten stripes (horiz. or vert.), submit the renderjob to ten stations. now you'll see that more than 5 stations will render very quickly the sky and the plane and only few cpus will calculate the center.
Vray is exceptional and maybe the best render solution you can get, but like Elliot said, i wish i could use it for all my projects. Keep up this masterpiece.
these images were rendered with the internal 1.45.10, poly count was beyond 5 millions.

[Janus Rölder]

at least one who sees the shortcomings of render stripes.

im curious about the post effect problems, is it correct what long john wrote?