Do you get paid on delivery??

[digitalx3d]

Hey everyone...
I'm in a frustrating situation (and not for the first time). I am a trusting guy. In 22 years, I have never watermarked an image and said "ok, I need your money if you want the watermark removed." I have never said, "ok, you give me the money, I give you the rendering." When the US economy went south, I got burned a couple times. I found out that contracts don't guaranty anything. Life isn't always fair. I'm no worse off today than if I got paid.

Sometimes I wonder though if I should watermark images or withhold the images until I've received payment. However, I've always been under the impression (or been told) that architects/developers/etc can't pay on demand like that due to their accounting systems. I feel like if I attempted that move (play hard-ball) that I'm in a position where if the client says NO, then I'm forced to walk away from the job. I would be leaving money on the table because I couldn't trust the client. Some clients may be willing to do this, but definitely some won't, and that's money I don't want to leave for someone else.

So my question is... what do the rest of you do? Are you in the same boat as me? Or do you 'play hard-ball'?

[flino2004]

Get paid on time is always an issue and not matter what you always a "partner". The architectural firm hired you, you billed them and they billed the developer.... the developer will pay late and the architectural firm only want to pay when they get paid....so you financed the developer who is not your client. What happen if the architects don't get the payment most definitely you won't ... because the excuse is "we all have been screwed by the developer" who again is not your client but as a "partner" you have deal with the whole thing.

it's a problem being on the bottom of food chain. if it is not a significant amount of money I won't sue them just because is a waste of energy, focus and time.
I think if the amount is lower than 7K would be a small claim... wasting of time.

[Neilg]

We now require a 75% deposit up front before we start work, getting that last 25% sometimes takes a while but it tends to come easier once they've already paid such a large chunk.

[glorybound]

I always get 50% upfront and 50% when the project is complete. My contract talks about a watermark being removed upon final payment, however, I never follow through with that. I have had a couple clients loose interest in their project towards the end, when the project is almost done, but other than once I still got paid right away and we finished the project at a later time. I would rather promise less and deliver more, so I try to make them feel important by not having a watermark and letting them pay within a few weeks of them getting their final files. The whole 60/90 day payment cycle they give is bogus and I wouldn't agree to that. We provide a service and once the service is provided, we get paid.

[digitalx3d]

Hey guys, thanks for chiming in.

I typically (with new clients) tell them I require 50% deposit. I find that the more firmly/confidently I state that, the more they go along with it. However, there are some that say they just can't do that. In which case I usually break down and say, "ok, I don't want to lose your business. Just pay as soon as you can." But that's also based off a gut feeling about the company. If people look a bit shady, I have no problem walking away, especially if it's a small project.

My frustration right now is actually a slightly different situation. I did the job on a hand-shake on a 50 hours estimate. As the project progressed, working side by side with the designer, he made literally 48 (or more) changes or add-ons, and we quickly reached that 50 hour mark well before the project was complete. I ended up with at least 115 hours logged. Some of that was due to underestimating, but about 40 hours were from the changes. Long story short, the project owner only wants to pay for the 50 hours, and the architect is playing the middleman. Being a veteran in this business, I know there are things I should have done differently. I DID notify the architect when we hit that 50 hour mark and said we'd be going over, and he said he'd work with the owner. I assumed I'd be able to get some extra billing, just not all of it. I didn't expect them to stick firm to the 50 hours. It's a messed up situation. I was just too engrossed in the project and rushing to complete it to take the time to properly communicate and watch my own back. I'm fairly confident they will deliver on the 50 hours (I did get 25% upfront). But to get stiffed on the rest or not even negotiate a compromise... I think is unfair and unethical.

In any case, I'm regretting that I handed over the images without at least coming to an agreement first. The last leg I have to stand on is that I have the 3d model and if they think they might want additional renderings or anything else derived from the model, I can deny them services. And if there is any future work to be done with them, I will certainly be tempted to use watermarks or whatever. I don't like to do business that way though.

[glorybound]

Yeah, it's silly for them to think you have skin in the game, which it sounds like you don't. Personally, I was in a situation like you mention, however, I asked for payment to satisfy the initial agreement before I continued. I simply tell my clients that I'm a small business, that needs the cash flow to keep the lights on, and they generally understand.

[Neilg]

Re write your contract with clear and defined stages/sign off processes, give one round of comments for each. so cameras, light, geometry, materials, and final post production can each have a stage of comments. Each is worth x% amount and if they go back after one has been signed off to start changing cameras or geometry, they pay you for that stage again or hourly.

[glorybound]

Re write your contract with clear and defined stages/sign off processes, give one round of comments for each. so cameras, light, geometry, materials, and final post production can each have a stage of comments. Each is worth x% amount and if they go back after one has been signed off to start changing cameras or geometry, they pay you for that stage again or hourly.

I'm working on a project that was a budget project because he didn't have the money. 5 weeks later he is on his 9th set of revisions! It isn't any good unless you enforce it, which I need to do. If they bicker about money then more than likely they'll be more demanded. That's a lesson I have learned.

[Neilg]

Something i've noticed too - our less demanding and best clients to work with are always the ones who pay on time (or early) with no arguments whatsoever.

[hoppergrass]

a certain client refused to pay because the project never got planning permission. After this I added the 50/50 clause. Amazingly when he came back for yet another round of rework there was money for the deposit and when the project was completed the final payment was in the bank before the morning was through. Deadlines can work both ways. He only had low res , watermaked images and needed the final hi-res ones for the submission.

Only long standing clients get away with not paying a deposit, that is only if they have proven themselves to be good clients. Others dont even question the clause and even appreciate it.

If a prospective client wont pay the deposit I wont take on the project. A financial commitment from the client is a good incentive for them as much as it is for me.

[digitalx3d]

Sorry to have been away for so long. Got slammed with deadlines. Thanks again for your contributions guys. My client is now talking about the "next project". Hopefully they aren't offended when things are done a bit differently. This is a tough business in many ways, and a great business at the same time.

It's funny how you guys mention the guys who bitch about price also tend to be more picky and demanding. And then there are others who hand over the work, don't question your prices (or don't even seem to care!), and get you paid every time. Very true indeed!

[joconnell]

A fairly well known productivity and performance chap called Tim Ferris started off his career running a sports supplements company where as an order came in he'd contact the manufacturers and they'd send to the purchaser. He was working 80 hours weeks to keep track of everything and eventually was so burnt out he'd to go on a holiday for a month before he had a nervous breakdown. He trimmed down his input into the business as much as possible, outsourced and automated as many tasks as possible and let his clients know he'd only be checking mails twice a day and if something's really urgent call him directly. After a month on holidays the business hadn't imploded so he then tried to see how far he could push this idea. One of them was as a few people have mentioned, firing some clients. He found that he got 80% of his orders from 20% of his clients and there was a small percentage of clients who caused all of the hassle. He mailed the clients he wanted to dump and said he wouldn't be able to service their needs any more and recommended some other suppliers that might suit them. Half of them pissed off and removed a load of his hassle, the other half sorted their shit out and became good clients!

As you get better at what you do it might be worth changing your terms yearly to allow you the proper conditions to bring your work standard upwards and try and get rid of the messers!

[glorybound]

Very well said.

[digitalx3d]

Agreed... Tim Ferris is awesome.

[crazy homeless guy]

The 4 hour work week is a rubbish and false.