Rendering-Times Interior

[sirio76]

That's clearly a BR noise issue, not just the denoiser.

As you can see in my tests that's not the case, BR runs as fast as in older version (actually the quality is a bit better on V5). About noise in general, that's the results of using a brute force algorithm, given that IM is not coming back the only solution is A: give enough render time to clean noise, B: use a denoiser like every one else (when it works!!!).
Developers should fix the standard denoiser on C4D, once it work again you can rise the threshold and speedup the render significantly while retaining all details
Usually for every project (as you know my scenes can get quite complex) I create between 2/10 images and I do that using a 8core, if I'm in a hurry I use the Cloud.

[RwVision]

I did not say that BR in 3.7 was better. It's overall in a poor state noise-wise. Since it's forced in V5, it should be already 2 times faster and cleaner in 2021

[sirio76]

That's not how things work
BR is a mathematical algorithm and mathematic doesn't simply "get faster" over time, developers can squeeze a bit of speed here and there but in recent years most of the speed up (and they really quite a lot compared to Vray 2.5core) had come from other areas (Embree, adaptive lighting, adaptive dome, new sampler etc, just to name a few).
Thats not just Vray, that's every engine that uses a BR approach, biased solutions produce splotches, unbiased solution produce noise and the reason why today every engine have a denoiser is to get rid of that.
If you see this scene: https://forums.chaosgroup.com/forum/...ing-and-dining done in 3.7 you won't notice any noise (and there was plenty of it!), just check the texture/bump detail on the curtains, is not blurry like you can expect using V5 denoiser.

[PdZ]

Maybe shaio after analyzing my scene could explain what is going on...

[RwVision]

That's not how things work
BR is a mathematical algorithm and mathematic doesn't simply "get faster" over time, developers can squeeze a bit of speed here and there but in recent years most of the speed up (and they really quite a lot compared to Vray 2.5core) had come from other areas (Embree, adaptive lighting, adaptive dome, new sampler etc, just to name a few).
Thats not just Vray, that's every engine that uses a BR approach, biased solutions produce splotches, unbiased solution produce noise and the reason why today every engine have a denoiser is to get rid of that.
If you see this scene: https://forums.chaosgroup.com/forum/...ing-and-dining done in 3.7 you won't notice any noise (and there was plenty of it!), just check the texture/bump detail on the curtains, is not blurry like you can expect using V5 denoiser.

Yes, and that's why my question is - why are we still getting screwed with the denoiser? We are way down behind the 3.7 BRLC + MP Denoiser.

[sirio76]

What is the "MP" denoiser?

[RwVision]

Multipass - This is the denoiser option which worked in older standalone denoisers and yet do not. The blurry effect in recent denoiser is due to limitation, which only does denoise on the beauty pass.

Go back to 3.7, older denoiser and compare rgb denosing vs multipass. The rgb method is the same as in V5. I've described it at least once on the forum.

[sirio76]

I assure you that's not the case, even the the RGB denoising mode on 3.7 was a lot better than what we have now (the classic living posted before was done in 3.7 BF + RGB denoiser and as you can see textures are not blurred). The multipass denoiser was even better but in some circumstances the RGB mode was superior.
My guess is that actual denoiser do not read the needed channels for some reasons and so it simply blur the output without taking in to account textures, normals, noise levels etc.
According to Vlado ( https://forums.chaosgroup.com/forum/...-store-concept ) you can get the multipass denoiser even on 5 by manually add the denoiser to the channels and rebuilding them in the VFB, I'm a bit busy right now but if you have time you can check if that works for you
shaio vlado it would be surely useful to have some input from developers

[RwVision]

I assure you that's not the case, even the the RGB denoising mode on 3.7 was a lot better than what we have now (the classic living posted before was done in 3.7 BF + RGB denoiser and as you can see textures are not blurred). The multipass denoiser was even better but in some circumstances the RGB mode was superior.

Could you please make someday some comparisons? I never used rgb denoise, because it always would loose details. But I do believe, that current rgb can be even worse. Last time I checked it was similar.

[PdZ]

Guys could we pls stay at the topic? I wanna know if I have to believe that Rendertimes are now set to slow motion mode because of the nature of Bruteforce/Light Cache?

1. So we are not able to chose IR/LC anymore which in my opinion is so ultrafast for Interiors especially?
2. Graphicscardrendering seems to be drastically faster. So I have to throw my Threadrippers out of the window now?
3. Why was IR/LC Solution cut? The simple answer: "Because its outdated" doesnt count for me. Its extreme fast and when you tweak it, you get a lot Out of it. So we basically now stuck in "Iam a customer and to lazy or not educated enough to set up IR/LC so I just chose 3 options, bruteforcing my way through, do not have to think but Rendertimes are then 20x slower". What is this approach? This is a slap in the face of every professional.
4. Give us pls IR/LC back...

[sirio76]

Could you please make someday some comparisons? I never used rgb denoise, because it always would loose details. But I do believe, that current rgb can be even worse. Last time I checked it was similar.

When I'll have some spare time I'll make some comparison If you check some of my works from last year in the gallery, you can see the results, classic projects are mostly denoised using the RGB mode.
In my experience the multipass mode was a bit better on details but worse on other parts and it tend to produce artifacts, so in time I've started to use the RGB mode more and more, and to be honest I'vent missed the multipass mode that much. Personally I'm ok with the RGB mode only on V5, but it must be fixed, in current state as said is barely usable..

[sirio76]

Guys could we pls stay at the topic? I wanna know if I have to believe that Rendertimes are now set to slow motion mode because of the nature of Bruteforce/Light Cache?

1. So we are not able to chose IR/LC anymore which in my opinion is so ultrafast for Interiors especially?
2. Graphicscardrendering seems to be drastically faster. So I have to throw my Threadrippers out of the window now?
3. Why was IR/LC Solution cut? The simple answer: "Because its outdated" doesnt count for me. Its extreme fast and when you tweak it, you get a lot Out of it. So we basically now stuck in "Iam a customer and to lazy or not educated enough to set up IR/LC so I just chose 3 options, bruteforcing my way through, do not have to think but Rendertimes are then 20x slower". What is this approach? This is a slap in the face of every professional.
4. Give us pls IR/LC back...

Render time with BR are not 20x slower, overall I would say that IM are about twice as fast, if you take in to account the time needed for the setup and the possible issues/lower detail quality I would say that a little time penalty doesn't matter that much. That's why nobody develop biased solution anymore, after all most modern renderer never had a biased system, are not any faster than Vray BR and users are working with them just fine.
When 3.x version was released I was thinking just like you (I even say that clearly on a forum, I'll try to find the topic if you don't believe me ), back then for me BR was a no go because of the noise/render time and especially for my classic works the IM was the only way. As soon as denoiser was added in version 3.4 I totally change my mind, it turn out that using BR I was more productive, the GI quality was improved and the denoiser take care of the noise. Once you embrace the BR you never go back to IM.***
GPU rendering is not drastically faster, in some circumstances it is surely faster, in other CPU may still be faster and do not have to deal with GPU issues. In our internal tests while developing our shaders for the same render a 32core 3970X TR took about 1', a 2080Ti 50''. Each system have some advantage, personally for my works I would still choose the Threadripper especially now that GPU prices are highly overpriced

***if you do have a capable denoiser!!!

[PdZ]

Dont know what you are talking about sirio76 . Iam testing with my Threadripper against my shitty old 1070ti and it loses by a BIG MARGIN.
AA is the same. Settings are the same.

[sirio76]

As said speed gain is scene dependent, I've just reported my personal experience Just be aware that render settings are not comparable between CPU and GPU, they are two different engine and you should not expect same results using similar settings.

[PdZ]

Hope shaio will respond some time. Also I have transparency Issues when rendering the same scene with GPU. When rendering with CPU I can see through the Window onto the roof. But when rendering the same sfene with GPU I can clearly see everything through the window when Light Cache is built but when rendering Starts, something weird is going on. I cant even explain what happens. I will post an image later. Its really annoying to deal with all that weird stuff.... Stealing all my time. I would appreciate if Chaosgroup would me more transparent about things.

Also waiting so Long for responses. Dont know exactly why. When I post something in the Redshiftforum its answered after 2-3 hours or so. Also they give me full advice and analyze things.

Maybe V-Ray for c4D is still not being taken seriously. Its a real pain. Even Chaosgroup must SEE that so many people are unhappy. It would just Help a lot and give hope if they just be more transparent.

Its like they are imitating Nintendo. Being full silent and at the end you get what you get but not what you expect/want.