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V-Ray and translucency.. in General it could work better.

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  • V-Ray and translucency.. in General it could work better.

    Most modern shading Models that I encountered, and I count Modo to that, make it quite easy for the user to decide if the translucency if an shader is thin or thick.
    So telling the shader that the model is 0 cm thick means its thin like paper or a leaf, so the render has to threat it like a 2-sided but also translucent object in render.
    Not so V-Ray.
    Thats terrible sad and I really hope they do that for the alShader, but I haven't see it working there yet.

    So for example in the case I set up a simple leaf in Modo I do two things: Set Subsurface Amount (to control how much light gets through) to 50.0 or more and set the Scattering distance to 0. Done.
    In V-Ray that ain't be easy. First you need to set up your material in schematic, which maybe a current limitation. Anyhow its important to control Translucency on the shader to get a Subsurface effect, However Vray ignores all Values set there in Modo except the color. So it looks like extra control, but it doesn't really do anything. Also V-Ray ignores opacity, so you need to set the area you want to be invisible in the translucence shader as well. That done you need to add a 2sidedShader to get light go through the backside. Anyhow that shader is buggy.
    It looks like it support a texture with RGB value, but that texture is not what you think. Its controlling the Front/Back weight of the light that goes through. And it freaks out if not grey scale. For example you might think of green best for a leave, but that will produce pink on the front side. There is not much of a logic behind that, so you need to ignore it. Also if you thing the backside should need more light and increase the value you will darken the front side. Hence this value should left to default. In Modo its at 50%. Not an RGB value.

    So while I can set up the whole things with two values in Modo it takes me a few minutes in V-Ray and still doesn't give me the same control. Thats terrible sad and sometimes I wish they would simple support the Modo shader for Subsurface Scattering, but what I find more wrong is that even doing the V-Ray thing doesn't get you far.
    Now some people might use the FastSSS shader for that, but that shader is a mess. Its overdone, with two many values that just will might it really difficult to get a result and once you tweaked it to a really good result its also terrible slow. Also IC caching on that shader is not working in Modo. At least it seems to be even slower then without.

    Yes its a critic, and sorry but I really want that thing working. Its the only thing that frustrates me with the Modo build of V-Ray, but its also not perfect in V-Ray anyway. So hope it gets in the alShader and makes our lives simpler.

  • #2
    Yes, I completely agree with Robert here. When one is setting up a lot of vegetation for a project it is really a much bigger pain in vray than in modo.
    I also agree, that modos shading approach here is superior/easier and allows you do do it on the fly without having to branch off into a seperate material. I think it would be great if Vray would steal a bit from Modo here.

    Cheers,
    Jonathan

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    • #3
      I will have some feedback shortly on this. With examples. I am just really tied up with projects at the moment.

      In general vray sss in my opinion is one of the most convoluted poorly thought out shaders in the industry.

      Fast SSS is supposed to be super accurate one of the best... yet you cant do anything with transparency roughness unless you build a slow complex blend material.
      Just the vray material. Here you have all the controls with refraction roughness, fog color, and translucency. Only one problem its overly complex to work with and dirt slow.... especially with refraction roughness. Another problem currently in modo we cant even properly test it because on small objects if you use too low a value on fog everything just goes pure black.

      Every engine out there does it better sorry its the truth. Go look at redshift, octane, hell even keyshot with their cloudy material, corona (you guys have access to that one). They are all not only faster on rendering but easier to use and predictable.... meanwhile vray has you sifting through sand trying to figure out how to build a sss material. Sure vray may be the most accurate but...... that means nothing if most of your user base is frustrated and doesn't know how to actually use it.

      Another issue I have run into with vray SSS is edge darkening on panels of geo that are close together.

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      • #4
        I'm afraid you are right, but it's not like it was done on purpose: you witness the results of 15 years of history.
        Next (4.x) will make it (more) right.
        Keep in mind we serve many other DCCs besides Modo, so what works well there may have no correspondence somewhere else, and sometimes the only solution is the minimum common denominator (i refer to shader automation, f.e. setting size to 0 in the sss lenght turning it into a 2sided.).
        While not knowing Modo at all, i can tell you that in max is exceedingly simple, however, to script one's own extensions/replacements of V-Ray shaders, lights and nodes, with whichever type of behaviour one would wish for.
        I am sure Modo isn't lagging behind in that department.
        Lele
        Trouble Stirrer in RnD @ Chaos
        ----------------------
        emanuele.lecchi@chaos.com

        Disclaimer:
        The views and opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent those of Chaos Group, unless otherwise stated.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vandigital View Post
          Another issue I have run into with vray SSS is edge darkening on panels of geo that are close together.
          That could be solved setting different IDs for the objects in the SSS shader.
          Lele
          Trouble Stirrer in RnD @ Chaos
          ----------------------
          emanuele.lecchi@chaos.com

          Disclaimer:
          The views and opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent those of Chaos Group, unless otherwise stated.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by vandigital View Post
            Another problem currently in modo we cant even properly test it because on small objects if you use too low a value on fog everything just goes pure black.
            This should be fixed in the nightly build from 2018.03.04.

            Greetings,
            Vladimir Nedev


            Vantage developer, e-mail: vladimir.nedev@chaos.com , for licensing problems please contact : chaos.com/help

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            • #7
              There where some words that in V-Ray Next things going to be reworked. I hope they do a more physical correct base shader that is more like Modos default shader.

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