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Bump changes the look of blurry reflections depending on the final render resolution

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  • Bump changes the look of blurry reflections depending on the final render resolution

    There is a problem with the way V-Ray is rendering bump maps. I don't see this issue in Modo or Octane.

    As the render resolution is decreased, v-ray's bump seems to "reduce", making the "blurry reflections" look sharper than they should be.

    I don't know how other people work, but in modo, we often use the "fit to vfb" feature which reduces the resolution of the image. This causes bumps to look different. If you are tweaking your bump to get a specific "blurry" look from reflections, then start a final full resolution render, your "blurry reflections" will now look much rougher than the smaller "preview" you were looking at while "fit to vfb" was enabled.

    This is not an issue with "fit to vfb". You could just do 2 renders (eg. 1 at 200x200, then another at 2000x2000), to see the difference.

    Here is the problem in V-Ray. The left image is rendered at 415x415. The right is 1500x1500, then resized to 415x415 in photoshop so we can compare them. You can see the area light reflections on the left look SHARPER than those on the right.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	20171130_vray_bump_difference_render_size_example_vray.png
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    Here is the same test in Octane. While the bump is a bit different to v-ray (I didnt spend much time trying to get an exact match), the important thing to notice is that both left and right look the same. The render resolution does not change the look of the bump/reflections

    Click image for larger version

Name:	20171130_vray_bump_difference_render_size_example_octane.png
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    Here is the same test in MODO. Once again, both left and right look the same. The render resolution does not change the look

    Click image for larger version

Name:	20171130_vray_bump_difference_render_size_example_modo.png
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    This is a problem in v-ray and I would like to get some attention on it. It's very important that what we are seeing while working at a smaller resolution, will translate perfectly to a larger render without changing the look.

    I have also attached the test scene




    Attached Files
    Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
    I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

  • #2
    Hey funk,

    Thank you for the post and amazing feedback. I am able to reproduce it and will add it to our system. Keep you posted about it.

    Cheers,
    Boyan Nalchadjiiski | QA Engineer @ Chaos |
    E-mail: boyan.nalchadjiiski@chaos.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Boyan
      Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
      I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

      Comment


      • #4
        This problem came up again on the v-ray skype channel. I was curious, has this problem been solved in v-ray next?
        Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
        I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

        Comment


        • #5
          Howdy,funk,

          I can reproduce it with Next. As a workaround for Bucket Render and CPU RT increase the "Antialiasing Strenght" filter of the bump texture map comparatively to your render high resolution. By default, the param used 100% value so if you change render resolution from 1K to 2K, set the option to 200%.

          Cheers,
          Boyan Nalchadjiiski | QA Engineer @ Chaos |
          E-mail: boyan.nalchadjiiski@chaos.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Your workaround doesnt work.

            This is the sample scene from the first post rendered with CPU. I left the texture filter at "nearest".

            Left: rendered at 415x415. bump image uses 100% AA strength
            Right: rendered at 1500x1500. bump image uses 360% AA strength

            Click image for larger version  Name:	boyan_bump_test.png Views:	1 Size:	148.8 KB ID:	1002306



            Here is a test without the triplanar map, and texture filter set to bilinear (default). I tried different tiling sizes (to closer match the tiling on the triplanar example). It's a bit closer, but still doesn't work

            Click image for larger version  Name:	boyan_bump_test_02.png Views:	1 Size:	145.0 KB ID:	1002314
            Click image for larger version  Name:	boyan_bump_test_03.png Views:	1 Size:	130.1 KB ID:	1002315


            Last edited by 1funk; 28-06-2018, 07:59 PM.
            Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
            I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

            Comment


            • #7
              Just following up on this thread. Any news on when this issue will be fixed in V-Ray?
              Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
              I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

              Comment


              • #8
                Using bump delta scale you can match the same look when you change your render res. Or use a normal map with filtering off, you will get same results
                I saw Vlado commenting on this before, he said they are doing research on this, would be a huge deal if they fix/improve this
                Muhammed Hamed
                V-Ray GPU product specialist


                chaos.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Muhammed_Hamed Ive been doing some tests by lowering bump delta scale when I render a larger res, and I'm still having a lot of trouble getting it to match my smaller render.

                  Bump delta scale is doing something different than I expected, giving a different look to the roughness using lower values.
                  Click image for larger version  Name:	bump_delta_scale_tests.png Views:	1 Size:	359.3 KB ID:	1026321


                  Last edited by 1funk; 12-02-2019, 02:01 PM.
                  Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
                  I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Actually I didnt think about trying values above 1.0. Youre right. This does get much closer. Thanks

                    It still wouldnt be much fun having to adjust every materials bump delta scale in a large scene though Click image for larger version  Name:	bump_delta_scale_tests_02.png Views:	1 Size:	247.5 KB ID:	1026325


                    If the solution is so "simple", I wonder why V-ray can't automate this? I'm guessing when you get down to the details, this doesnt solve all cases?
                    Last edited by 1funk; 12-02-2019, 02:17 PM.
                    Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
                    I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1funk Hey man!
                      Did you test bump delta scale with the GPU engine back then?
                      This doesn't work on GPU, and there is no way of rendering high res. and getting the same bump mapping results
                      Muhammed Hamed
                      V-Ray GPU product specialist


                      chaos.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Muhammed_Hamed I don't remember if I tested it, but I see I was using GPU in the original post, then only used CPU to test your solution.

                        So I just tried it out now, and you're right. Bump Delta Scale doesn't work on GPU.
                        Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
                        I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Linking to Muhammed's other thread, for future reference:
                          https://forums.chaosgroup.com/forum/...-biggest-issue
                          Win10 Pro 64 / AMD Ryzen 9 5950X / 128GB / RTX 3090 + 1080 Ti / MODO
                          I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - Jesus Christ

                          Comment

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