for v-ray to be a true mass succes

[ALTO]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

ALTO, I' m not sure I understand, when a slider must be. One time it's a glossiness and the next time not. For example at the glass material, should not be there reflection and refraction glossiness slider? I like the glossiness slider "matte ... satin ... high". Could be nice to enable an automatic mode for the subdivs, like we talk about it some weeks befor. So, the user could use the slider only.

Micha maybe you're right, i've only put some examples taken from some Materials plugin for Max.... (Look here)

I like the physical order of layers with the freedom to change the order. For example a glossy plastic with a diffuse dirt layer at the top. This is not so easy to setup with the current VfR.

So what's the meaning of have a physical order that can be modified???
I think it's better to have an advanced layered system, something like the one i posted.

[Travis Serio_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

did i mention that i like sliders? sliders = easy :P ;D :P

lol, man i like all of these.

[dalomar_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

When I talk about hierarchy within the UI, I'm referring to the relationship between settings within layers (i.e. the difference between the refraction color and the exit color in the reflection layer...right now there's almost none). This is the main thing that our UI (and vfMax) is completely lacking. Just some visual clues to understand what setting is going to the most important would go quite a long way. I agree that different material presets can help and would be very useful, but at a certain point users will need to create materials from scratch...if they can't do that effectively then thats not a good thing. Besides the settings aren't "strange" is just that right now the are completely foreign to new users. Making them understandable, in the long term, is much more valuable to us.

i'm not sure i can agree with you, Vray is a professional render engine not a toy, it's almost impossible to use professional softwares without studying them for some hours/days

I agree that V-Ray is a professional render engine, and definitely not a toy. I agree that people should take responsibility upon themselves to learn how to use the software. However, our goal is not to only have professional renderers use our engine, but anyone who wants to produce high quality renderings from Rhino or SketchUp. If someone wants to do a quick studio render, then knowing all the ins and outs of a professional render engine is not needed, so why require that a user knows all of that if they just want to do simple things.

There are things that we can do within our UI that can make learning how to use V-Ray easier. There is no reason to keep a UI that alienates possible users just because we want to say that we only cater to professional renderers. We are trying to change things so that scene setups, options, and materials are easy for all users. For advanced users this may mean an interface that remains quite close to the functionality that we currently have. For new users it may be something that has only a few settings with some presets and sliders. We plan to have both exist so that users can choose how they want to work. At this point, we want to give you the tools to use vray in different ways. Some may take the simple route, others the more advanced, and maybe even a few bouncing back and forth between the two depending on the task at hand.

[Travis Serio_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

I totally agree with you Damien. From my experience with users I found you have 2 user types.

User 1) doesn't care how it works. They want a simple menu with presets that they can assign materials to objects and click render hoping to achieve a desired look. The presets make this happen for most people, but it totally depends on the existence of a good material, and environment library.

User 2) wants total control over every single aspect of the render (the power user) this type of user is typically the smaller percentage of your users but tends to drive the softwares development the hardest and set the trends that the User1 type users want to follow.

I think the only true solution is to have a dual mode layout, a retained mode (made mostly of presets and simple settings such as reflection and rgb sliders), and an advanced mode (full control over everything). Let them tinker a little or a lot.

The dual mode layout offers a solution that fits any experience level.

[ALTO]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

Well i agree too with Damien, but how to improve the actual UI for advanced users? This is the question...

From my pov the layer structure doesn't work well and for sure this can cause some trouble for beginners, an interface like in Max is absolutely more easy to understand and more logical, try to explain to someone that doesn't know nothing about rendering how a "basic" shader can be structured:

in Max you have all parameters visibile and with fixed position (important things are quite clear, they are first) so an explanation could be:
this is X, this is Y, this is Z, then if you want to change this setting go here, for this one go here etc....

in Rhino (or SketchUp) :
this is X, then for that result you should add a layer that is Y, to change this setting go here, for this effect add another layer Z.... but you can also add different layers X1,X2 or Y1,Y2 etc...
(sorry for the "low profile" example!!!)

Then yes, some things could be replaced with sliders, others with percentage values etc..

.... but it seems i'm the only one who don't like actual layers! ???

[Paraglobal]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

I still new to vray but I find the material creation very confusing.

I wish I could create one material in the material studio and then leave it rendering all the possible (or almost all) solutions so that after that I could just in real time change a value and immediately see the result in the preview window.

Does this sound crazy?
Thanks
Sergio

[dalomar_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

@ Alto
The layer structure is something that we are looking to change with the new UI. Our current mode of thinking with the changes on the layer structure is that we will free up the order of our layers so that they can me moved above or below any other layer. With that and a rework of how layer transparency is handled, I don't think the layer structure will really be that much of a hang up anymore. I do think that adding a blend type material that would have the material structure that you're suggesting would be a welcome addition. Having the blend material would be quite useful, and I'm sure thats something that some of our advanced users would really like to have.

In regards to how to change the UI for advanced users, I think it comes back to workflow. And that just simply means being able to work within what we have effectively without having to jump through hoops. Functionality wise, I think our current standard material situation is pretty much there (layer reordering/structure aside). I can of course think of some things to add, but that impacts maybe 5% of the materials that I make. A streamlined material workflow, IMHO, would go much farther then an added material feature here or there. Thats one of the reasons I liked the examples that you posted earlier...they had some positive changes regarding work flow and thats going to be (hopefully) a big change with the new UI.


@ Paraglobal
We are probably going to switch to a progressive render setup for the material preview. That means that the material preview will be constantly updating and constantly refining, so that there is no need for pressing an update button, and within a few seconds you should get a preview that will give you a good idea of what things look like. I'm not sure thats what you were exactly asking for (there are literally infinite possibilities, so I'm not 100% sure rendering those in the background would work), but its definitely much better the our current setup.

[Paraglobal]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

Hi Damien

That sounds better, any improvement with the creation of materials is very welcome.

I understand that there are almost infinite possibilities for parameters but I wish I could let the Material Studio working all nights so that I could also experiment new materials.
Imagine that a user created one base material and then he wants to test several changes on that material, instead of doing this manually maybe he could let the Studio random change several parameters and the final renders saves in to some kind of memory, so that if the user changes any parameter of that material, most probably that was already calculated with good quality and the preview is instantaneous.

This was just a way to test most of the parameters that we have when we create a new material, I only understand 5% of the total of them.

Regards
Sergio

[dalomar_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

Maybe that could be done if a specific parameter is changed along with a range of possible values (ie change reflection glossiness from 1 to .4 on a specific material). That could actually probably be scripted once we get some of that functionality with vfr.

[ALTO]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

Thanks Damien, nice to see that my point is well taken!
At the right moment don't hesitate to show us your progress on this (obviously if you can), with some images from you, we can discuss better!

[dalomar_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

Obviously at this point sharing it is not really an option. Hopefully later down the road when we actually have things much more solidified, we can put together a small group of beta testers for the new interface. Allot depends on when/how/IF we even do that, but we will try to share as much as possible when that becomes an option.

[Markvanhandel]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

As one of the designers coming from Rhino and wanting quick accurate renders I think that Alto's interface has some merits. The primary one being that there is a preset tab where you have controls based on a preset material from a library with easy access to the details if you want more control (which I usually do).

But having never used VfMax (which the detail controls seem to be based on?) the rest of the interface seems almost incomprehensible to me even now that I am comfortable with VfRhino's UI. I like the current UI in that the maps are right next to the element you are controlling and everything is clearly delineated by layers.

The process of mapping is the only thing I think is a problem now. All the new windows and seemingly duplicated controls make that a difficult process to understand. Fix that, add the "simple" controls on top and build a more robust and realistic library of plastics, ceramics and paints and you guys will have a winner.

[Lyquid_Kill]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

I agree that there should be 2 levels of user options within 1 UI. For me personally, I have 2 requests for the UI.
1.) Simplified faster achieved settings via more robust mat/environment library and our good friend sliders. There are 2 types of users indeed...but even if I AM a professional user...that doesnt mean I should always have to go to pain staking measures for high end results. Even as a professional you have different levels of renderings you show to clients during the process of getting to a final iteration, at least in my case. Doing renderings to win the bid on a job often doesnt allow for lots of time...so you need results fast! This means I dont need to piddle around with cumbersome/extraneous parameters/controls when I only have limited time. Is it inconceivable to have material options using sliders that are expressed within a realistic range of parameters? All of the settings are based on scientifically approximated calculations...so can we define that realistic range we should stay between?


2.) Decal tool! The heineken keg is a great example. It is ridiculous to me that you would actually have to model an offset/separate surface to place a logo! In flamingo its simple!!!...this is not the complicated stuff of "professionals" this is rendering 101 stuff here guys!!! For example...in flamingo I made a glass material that had a rusty film around the edges from its iron frame. The edges were dull and crusty where the rust decal was but the "clean" area of the glass was still shiny and reflective as ever! In VFR I'm not so sure this is possible...in as few steps anyhow. Is it possible to make a decal tool for VFR? I dont want to have to use explicate map channels and all of that nonsense. I also dont want to have to duplicate materials THEN place a decal on that material so then I end up with 5 materials when there actually only 5 objects using "the same" material in a scene. also, what if I need to place multiple decals on one object and all have different reflection/specular properties? I cant do that in vray (as far as i know).....I can in flamingo. Each decal has its own visual properties independent of the base material its going over! This is great! Say for instance I have matte vinyl letters on top of shiny brushed aluminum and I also have a screen printed logo that is even glossier on top of that...how would I do all of that in vray using one material/mesh? I dont think its possible. In flamingo you can and its easy!



Oh yeah....I just thought of a couple other things too....
in stead of specifying how many times a map is repeated on a surface....it would be nice to input the size of the map period.

And, as I mentioned in another thread, instead of "highlight glossines" as the only control parameter use "specularity" and have controls for the "sharpness/intensity" AND "size/spread" of the specular reflection.

[ALTO]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

I'm sorry to bring up this old thread but i have some wish regarding material editor:

-first of all i would like to have an option to convert basic rhino materials into vray materials, actually they are converted "internally" but they are not editable with the vray mat editor; also a better translation would be welcome.(eg: glass materials, materials with alpha map etc...)

-like in VfMax i think we need a simple checkbox for Fresnel reflection...

-It would be nice to have an option to pick Material from object

-Also i'm trying to use some arroway textures but i can't get the right result, in VfMax i can apply textures directly in the reflection slot, in VfR every bitmap used in refl slot give wrong effect, put the map under filter doesn't solve the problem!? (i Think it's a bug!)

I really dubt that the new material editor will be included in the upcoming upgrade, so in the meantime can we have the actual material editor linked to the RDK one?
I mean something like in Fryrender:

At last we can have a material browser and we can drag materials to objects!


Talking about the title of this discussion, one year ago VfR was for sure the best integrated plugin in Rhino ...
...well at the moment Maxwell has a SuperPlugin, Brazil interface is the most complete (with RDK, all kind of lights, IES with preview etc..), Fryrender has a simple plugin but it use RDK features and his integration doesn't need more....
...also i don't know the status of Vray for XSI but i know that vers.for C4D and Maya are a lot better than the Rhino or SketchUp versions, so now that official 1.5 is out, when can we expect the "qualitative leap"?

Thanks

[Micha_cg]

Re: for v-ray to be a true mass succes

... and VfR is the only non-beta biased modern render engine yet, so it's a good time to get user. So, if the bug list could be shorter and the workflow refined ...