A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

[edonk]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

Well I'm hoping that fact they have experienced SU users like ThomThom on the beta testing team of v8 will mean that Google will at least hear about what users want rather than churn out another useless version. Just do your best Thomas!

[Jackson_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

Not to detract from Thomas' formidable SU and ruby skills, but I wouldn't hold your breath. A whole bunch of skilled pro SU users and pro ruby programmers were on the SU7 beta team and it made no difference- by the time the beta is ready for testing functionality is more or less set in stone and the beta team can only really report bugs and very minor UI issues.

In fact, I wouldn't even hold your breath for an SU8 at all. Just a hunch on my part.

[thomthom]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

What I'd like to have clarified by Google is where SU fits into their big picture. What are their plans - seeing how competing on the graphic creation arena doesn't seem to fit into Google's scheme. Google is about information.

That's why I hope for better backend. More power to the Ruby API.

I don't believe SU becoming Open Source would be the answer. That would mean someone having to pick up the code. Read the code, learn the code understand it. Not easy. And who's to say where they'd bring it. No guaranty the development would improve.
And it might very well not be possible to release it as OS, who knows what kinds of licences tech might be in SU.

[edonk]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

I dont want to admit it, but I think Jackson maybe right.

[gtrman84]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

SU is going nowhere, plain and simple. Actually I'll restate that just a little bit, SU has been going nowhere. In order to be able to do the things that its advanced users are asking for it will require a complete rewrite of the software. Scrap their geometry core and start a new. The system that was put in place originally was never really meant to catch on in the way it did, and now it simply can't handle it. Of course, as many of you have realized on this thread that's just simply not in SU's plans.

As to Max, its an issue of learning it. Your not going to be able to sit down and just work with it like SU...it just doesn't work that way. You have to understand how it approaches modeling, and unfortunately its approach is almost completely the opposites of SU. The interesting thing is though is that Max's approach is not all that different from a number of the other softwares out there (Maya, XSI, Houdini, Modo). Back to my point, its going to be unintuitive and slow if you never get formally acquainted with its approach. That's like assuming that because you've driven a Honda, you can drive a race car...it just plain doesn't work that way. If you're at a firm with resources to have a seat or two of Max, do the decent thing and buy a $50 DVD that will tell you how to use it.

[dcauldwell_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

I'm not really bothered that SU is limited. For me, it does what I want it to do. I have a small (very small) practice and SU delivers what I need. My only fear is that it might die, which would leave me stranded.
If I wanted more functionality, that I could only get from a more complex programme like 3dsMax then I would have to weigh the cost in time and $ to see if it was worth it. I have decided it isn't worth it and I suspect so have very many other people.
It is only natural for us all to want more, but I still think that SU delivers a great product, admittedly enhanced with all the ruby scripts written by enthusiasts.
In terms of speed, accuracy and it being a downright pleasure to use, it has no competition.

David

[Jackson_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

Back to my point, its going to be unintuitive and slow if you never get formally acquainted with its approach.

At the risk of turning this topic into a 3DS Max vs. SU flame war (which is akin to trying to compare a telephone to a tree), the whole point of "intuitivity" is that you need not be formally acquainted with any approach. If you can use a computer, you can use SU. It does, more or less, exactly what you expect it to do.

Sure 3DS Max may be the "race car" of the analogy, but how many people need a race car compared to those who use a Honda every day? The simple fact is there's a reason that almost every architect's office in the world has a seat or two of SU- it's useful and it doesn't require the user (usually an architect) to have a whole separate field of expertise in operating advanced software. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of pro 3DS Max users I've met and worked have tended to have very little involvement in the design side of their offices. There are exceptions of course; those who can juggle both balls equally well, but not many.

[steelers05]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

EDONK: Thanks, I am glad you liked the video. There was a lot of post production work done to put together that actual animation and add efffects. It certainly was not just SU, but SU+vray were my only sources of modeling and rendering for that project. There are a number of reasons I am looking into incorporating max. A few you already mentioned: high poly support, vegetation, 3d people. But I want it for many other reasons: more organic modeling tools, animation tools, camera tools, and many other things like particle systems, and being able to create fluid dynamics. Also, I think v-ray works better in Max...it has more features, and appears to yield more predictable results as you go through the rendering process. This is not a knock an V-ray for SU, because I think it is more of an issue on the SU side that creates most of the headaches and limitations, and the ASGVIS guys have done a great job in giving us an amazing product (hope I didnt upset anyone?). And the primary reason I want to get more into 3ds max is because Illustration/motion graphics is my career, and wether we want to admit it or not, the industry still relies on 3ds max for the truely polished work that companies like Neoscape, Spine 3D, ASGVIS, and Pur produce, and I do not hesitate to say that most of all of these companies use a 3ds max + vray at their core. Now for many, that is not necessary, and that is where several of you are right that SU has lived up to its niche potential...architects all over the world are using it as a design tool and it does more than enough for them. In the architecture & illustration business, I see more of a middle ground in all of this. With programs like SU & revit becoming more and more popular every day, and rendering becoming more accesible to people, I see a lot of people using all of the programs together, just like this thread was originally about....Offices are not going to want to create a model in Revit or SU, just to send it out to a rendering company or to their own renderers to have it remodeled in max to render (thats a waste of time & money). That is why it would be beneficial to be able to balance several things...also if you are like most SU users that love the program because of how intuitive and fast you can model then you will find creating the foundation of a model in SU beneficial & being able to stabalize a workflow of taking those models into max and adding the other things like vegetation and high poly models to detail the rest of your scene. I just do not see this as a battle anymore of one against the other. If you can afford it, I think joint use of the softwares is the next step in this business...and that stands for many others like rhino, modo, and others because each one has its advantages and disadvantages. For architects, SU alone may be fine, but serious illustrators that want to be able to provide more thatn still renderings need to be serious about investing lots of money into several softwares, because relying on one thing is simply not the answer and will limit you on what you are able to provide customers.

Ok...well back to the workflow questions:
-I am finding that max does not consider objects that are grouped within groups. It just reads every object as their own, and does not understand that a lamp & lamp shade are for example grouped together if you made it that way in SU. Can anyone confirm that?

-Also to those who have had success in rendering in vray for max, how do you scale your textures so that you know they are the proper size? I am trying to do all of my materials in Max for a few reasons: I want to get better at max & there a lot more free materials available to download & import, & I want to know how to properly apply them to my scene. Ive tried using one of the UVW mapping modifiers and I get some materials to look right, but I dont know how to possibly make the scale adjustments in Vray and to assure that my other maps like bump maps are lined up properly. Anyone care to talk about that workflow? Also, importing v-ray-max materials is kind of weird to me, anyone else had trouble with that?

[nomeradona_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

absolutely right steeler. it does not read group like that. but this is waht you could do. you can just select all those group toghether and make a Selection group in max. The selection group work the same as those group inside the group. i find this a very important tool in selecting effectively. on the other hand., it is advisable in using SU to use group always. or else you ende up editing faces... which is also ok.

as for the above, i agree with all your points especially jacsons and thom thom. i guess for conceptual presentation of architectural presentation, SU is formidable. how many projects i managed to signed because i shown the 3d model in SU to my clients and let him scroll using my mouse....

but there is another facet when you are gettin more deeper with visualization... forcing google to fits your need wont be easy.... for this software fits what they need.. the concept of opening everything easily on the web, is what makes Google richer. Do you think they will make more money in developing SU to support high poly models, which they dont need anyway... they wanted the users to open quickly the model on line.. that's it.. that is their business...

me im satisfy...

- if i do a quick visualization and modelling i use SU
- rendered image for my client to show quicklly my concept and at the same time give a realistic impression, then i rendered my better SU modelled either with Podium or Vray Sketchup
- for my deeper longing to satisfy my goal by achieveing a more deeper visualization, using high poly trees, and hiogh poly models.. i model my basic structure in SU, export in Masx and render in VrayMAx
- now there is an urge in my bones to model more organic shape more realsitically... im looking forward with zbrush...

in the end.. it will boils down with 2 things.

1. your need. remember there is no such thing as perfect software..
2. how you will use this software... let me use the analogy of the racing car... you might have the best racing car available, but if you dont know how to use its useless...

[steelers05]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

Nomer, thank you again for your contribution here and on the SU forum with your workflow explanations. That info is really great and essential for this sort of workflow. You have completely agreeable points and I think this thread, alone, is an example of many users starting to realize all of this.

[nomeradona_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

there is now an extension provided by AUtodesk to import Sketchup file directly to Max.

[nomeradona_cg]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYOl5ttzh4

[steelers05]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

Yes yes I saw this a few days ago. Very exciting. Someone had already mentioned it before, but I agree that this is one of autodesk's way to get customers back because they recognize the power behind what SU has brought to visualization world. It very well may get me invested into 3ds max

[thomthom]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

This was brought up a few posts ago by thomthom. I didnt search the site to see if there was video about it, but I found this youtube link that made me extremely happy last night. This may have several people looking more into this sort of workflow that we are currently talking about. I dont know about any of you, but this is the next best things I could here ....other than if SU would actually incorporate the things Jackson was mentioning.

Speaking of...The frustrating part about SU & I guess a driving force behind why many people are more and more interestred in this sort of workflow with max is that even if SU incorporates all these changes we have been so desperately asking for, I do not have much confidence in the "progressive" attitude of the developers. As I have been getting deeper & deeper into the 3D world, I have defenitaly realized that we all will constantly need something new and will never be content (I am 100% guilty of that) because we want to make our work better. We think that these few changes made by SU will keep us happy...it wont...because while SU is trying to catch up to programs like max, the others will just be moving further ahead with a group of developers that actually want to improve the program EVERY YEAR with new and advanced features(this is not a defense of autodesk and their pricing by any means). Considering all of this, many of us will try and use this workflow solution, because SU does feel a lot more intuitive and quicker (for most of us) at the modeling stage, but eventually feel constricted by many of the previously mentioned SU issues. Who knows, maybe for architectural Illustration needs, these few changes are all we need though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYOl...x=0&playnext=1

Thanks for that link. Very good to see an example like that.
I have just tried out Max' Camera Match function - so very nice. Just what I've always wanted SU's photomatch to be.

With more and more Revit model being produced in this office - and with SU doing a terrible job at importing them - and VfSU taking a long time to process these models - it's just not efficient. So I'm not looking into getting a Revit -> Max workflow for our Revit projects.

[steelers05]

Re: A Sketchup to 3ds max & Vray discussion

No problem. I have yet to look into that camera match feature....is it the same concept or purpose as photomatching?

I am assuming u meant "now" and not "not" right thomthom? If thats the case...I will soon be looking into that sort of workflow as well to incorporate cause our office is currently working on a transition from CAD to revit. I personally hope to not be modeling in Revit because it is not nearly as enjoyable or intuitive (Especially for anything organic)