Lower resolution Vray material files

[glennco]

Hello,

I've discussed this in the Rhino forum, just want to get other users feedback as well.

Would it be possible for Chaos to create another library either separate or integrated with current material library, of lower resolution files for wood, grass, asphalt, etc?

If integrated, simply naming them as low resolution or #pixels etc.

It appears the current high(er) resolution files than in the past are causing issues with files sizes and I think with GPU rendering since VRAM gets filled up.

Most of what I do is fine with smaller files, I have stopped using Vray materials whenever possible and use much lower resolution from another source.

Thanks,

Glenn

[Muhammed_Hamed]

It appears the current high(er) resolution files than in the past are causing issues with files sizes and I think with GPU rendering since VRAM gets filled up.

Hi glennco,

This is why Mipmapped textures exist in Vray GPU, it will use a lower resolution of the original texture based on how close the object to the camera, and some other factors
Mipmapping works well in Vray GPU, it can lower VRAM utilization by 500% in some cases
A lower resolution version of the library is a lot of work, I don't think it is needed
For my displacement and normal mapping I use 16k maps all the time, Vray is very efficient on using VRAM.

Here is an example,

This scene uses nearly 500 4k maps, and only uses 5 GB of VRAM, with mipmapped textures
Vray CPU uses 27 GB of system memory of the same scene



Best,
Muhammed

[glennco]

Muhammed_Hamed

Muhammed,
Thank you for the reply and great sample image.
I am using mipmapping, please see attached.
I leave all settings at default, only changing a few items as shown and exposure.
My files are small 25mb to 50mb, depending on if I have Rhino save textures or not. During GPU rendering my RTX2070 only uses around 40% of memory. Which is why I am surprised RTX is having issues, but CUDA does not.
I have noticed RTX mode is slow to load textures, I can read the file name as it loads. where as CUDA they flash by quickly.
I've read about others facing GPU rendering problems, so I decided to go back to CUDA and it appears to be more stable.
Chaos recently made the texture library larger, so I don't think that offering a few (not all) textures at lower resolution should be a major issue for them.
Regards,
Glenn
8700K 32gb
Rhino 7, 7.8.21196.05001
Windows 10.0.19043
RTX 2070 NVIDIA 471.41
Vray 5.10.05

[Muhammed_Hamed]

Hey glennco,

The advantage on using RTX is far too good honestly, to even consider Cuda at this point. In my testing, RTX is 50% faster than Cuda in similar interior scenes. In the recent Vray builds, RTX stability has been better in my testing (I use GPU rendering almost exclusively for my work)
On another note, RTX uses a bit more VRAM, this is expected to happen and shouldn't affect you (knowing that Cuda only uses 40% of your VRAM for your scene)

One issue in this screenshot here is GPU bucket size of 32, this is very bad (even if it is the default setting in Vray Rhino, the devs need to change this) ..
In Max,Maya,Houdini and pretty much all other plugins this setting is hidden and is controlled by Vray automatically. For now set bucket size to 256
Turn off denoising, Turn off GPU light Cache(to have as few variables as possible) .. use GPUz to monitor the VRAM usage

Let me know how this goes, and if you can export .vrscene and upload it here I can try a bunch of different settings on my hardware.

I have noticed RTX mode is slow to load textures,

This is not supposed to happen, it might be specific to your scene. Loading geometry and textures is super fast on my hardware in RTX mode

[glennco]

Muhammed_Hamed

Muhammed,

Can you explain why bucket size should be 256?

In case this has impact, typically my clients are happy with 1500pixels or even 1920x1080, they render fast and email easily as well. I usually have several camera positions for a given project.

I agree 100% with you, that RTX is faster than CUDA, unfortunately it was crashing and overall I was loosing more time rebooting etc so I switched to CUDA.

Could my files/scenes be too small to take advantage of (or cause problems with) RTX. Sort of like using an F1 car to drive to the corner store to pickup groceries.

Or perhaps I should render RTX at high+, and larger pixels?

I use HwMonitor to watch temps, speed, etc. Temps are well within specs, under full render load GPU is 58-62 @ 1950mhz, and CPU is 68-74.

Thanks for the offer to test a scene on your hardware, my current work has NDA, but if I have one that doesn't I'll be in touch.

And the RTX problems were random, intermittent across new & old projects. Sometimes a scene that would render fine in the morning, would crash in the afternoon.

Thanks again,

Glenn

P.s. Here is the text from discussing with Chaos:

3/18/2021 in the morning & early afternoon ran at least a dozen RTX renderings 1000 to 4000pixels 90seconds to 5minutes each in the same Rhino 7 file, while I adjusted materials.

Turned computer off for a lunch break. Opened the Rhino file from the morning, added "obsolete" note, saved as a new file, opened asset editor, clicked render icon, system freeze.

I did a hard reset/reboot.

Then opened that same file, ran about 3.5 hours of RTX renderings, maybe a minute of downtime between renderings to reset pixel output & click on saved camera position.

Smallest was 5minutes 4000x8000pixels, largest was 57minutes 12000x9000pixels. 7 total renderings, GPU 58-60c, room 20-22c.

No freezes or problems during this 3.5 hour session.

P.s.s your profile picture looks like inside a Porsche on a track?

[Muhammed_Hamed]

Can you explain why bucket size should be 256?

Hello!

Bucket size is key in GPU rendering, usually bigger buckets guarantee the GPUs will be busy and at max usage all the time(specially with multiple GPUs). I have talked with the GPU lead developer when they implemented bucket around Vray Next and he explained why he uses 6 buckets per GPU at 256 size
Again, every Vray plugin has this bucket size option hidden by default and automatically set to 256 for this reason. I would love to show you my talk with him but the Vray Next Beta forum is archived

This is also true with other renderers, that let you specify bucket size. Cycles4D to be specific, bigger buckets are faster on GPU (256 vs 32) and smaller buckets are better for CPU rendering (so you don't have stuck buckets near the end of the render, so 32 or 24 are good for CPU rendering)

The fact that this is set to 32 by default in Rhino plugin is a bug, or it was left from CPU UI by mistake..

Or perhaps I should render RTX at high+, and larger pixels?

I have seen RTX gains in almost every scene, you don't want to miss on that. It doesn't hurt to try RTX again with the latest stable builds, it has been reliable in my experience.
Also in case you buy a new GPU, the 3rd Gen GPUs are super fast with RTX.. the RT cores has better performance overall
It is also important to follow along with support if you encounter an issue, and if you get the time for that.

Temps are well within specs, under full render load GPU is 58-62 @ 1950mhz, and CPU is 68-74.

Good, so you hardware is good, it is something about the scene or settings

your profile picture looks like inside a Porsche on a track?

Yesss, good guess
Porsche Panamera Turbo, this was last year in Dubai I got a chance to ride on a track

Best,
Muhammed

[glennco]

Muhammed_Hamed

Thank you for taking time to thoroughly explain. I appreciate your effort.

I will investigate your suggestions further.

Since I'm currently using CUDA with GPU & CPU, should I change bucket size?

Maybe a compromise like 64 or 128?

I did a few tests with CUDA GPU only vs GPU & CPU, GPU&CPU is about 10% faster and seems to run smoother (the texture file uploads flash by, where as with GPU only there is a slight delay, but nothing like the long pause with RTX).

I recently removed Nvidia driver with DDU and then a clean install, 1 crash with RTX, so I moved to CUDA. Stable since.

Last spring I was getting input from various Chaos moderators on the forum. But they mostly sang the same song that my problems are my hardware not their software. Since I was very busy with paying work, I stopped following up with them and lived with the crashes, until recent switch to CUDA.

That must have been thrilling to drive the Porsche in Dubai.

Do you race?

In the late 1980's to mid 1990's (yes I'm that old) I raced with SCCA and IMSA. Now I'm a huge endurance sports car fan. WEC, European & Asian LeMans series, and IMSA in the states. They all have full races on their official YouTube channels. It's nice to watch a 24hour race over a month or two at my convivence.

Glenn

[Muhammed_Hamed]

Muhammed_Hamed
Since I'm currently using CUDA with GPU & CPU, should I change bucket size?

Maybe a compromise like 64 or 128?

Hey Glenn!

Priority goes to GPU buckets here I think, in other Vray plugins where this is set automatically the GPU buckets get 256 size and CPU size gets 64 or 32
See the example below,

In the late 1980's to mid 1990's (yes I'm that old) I raced with SCCA and IMSA. Now I'm a huge endurance sports car fan. WEC, European & Asian LeMans series, and IMSA in the states. They all have full races on their official YouTube channels. It's nice to watch a 24hour race over a month or two at my convivence.

How cool is that! Must have been real fun!
I don't race myself, I worked in Dubai for 4 years for multiple automotive tuners. I got a chance to work on some of nicest cars, the Maybach S600 was my first project and Mercedes S class in general, I know these cars very well
Im a huge Mercedes and AMG fans, I got access to many cool cars during the time including that Porsche. I'm 25 years old, I transitioned from Automotive to VFX last year, I'm always looking for a new adventure

Best,
Muhammed

[glennco]

Muhammed_Hamed

Muhammed,

Thanks for the additional information.

Over the weekend I tried 64 & 128 bucket sizes for CUDA GPU/CPU. 64 no or not measurable speed change, 128 did show about 3% faster. This week I have more complex projects so I'll try another round of size increases.

Interesting we had a similar career path. I was in manufacturing design (mostly automotive parts) then transitioned to Architectural Illustration. Which I enjoy much more.

Thank you again for your time. You seem to be off to a good start , and I'm sure you will enjoy a long & successful journey.

Glenn

P.s. google below:

Asian LeMans series 2021 Mercedes-AMG GT3 Evo

Four Factory-Supported Mercedes-AMG GT3s for Nürburgring 24hr

IMSA Weathertech Championship 2021 Mercedes-AMG GT3

[luisgamino2]

Hi Muhammed

I would like to coment that vray gpu for sketchup has the same problem, buckets size is the same for vray for rhyno and vray for sketchup, 32 by default Even if You change the size the buckets didnt get bigger and Also is not Even faster, if i have to tell You the truth why this is happening every time for sketchup and rhyno???!!!, seems that vray for maya and vray for 3d max always get the Big attention, they got the Best features always like resumable rendering and vray for rhyno and sketchup always didnt work as they should, seems thats chaos group treat vray for rhyno users and vray for sketchup users like beginners or childrens and vray for maya and 3d max as professional and adults, for example buckets size why this remains like that 32 for size Even with vray next( now in vray 5.1 is still the same), we are loosing power and gpus are not cheap, they are very expensive, so please don't take me wrong, but right now as a vray team and as vray gpu specialist for chaos group team, please fix that problem, i would like to use all of My power from My 2 2080ti, i'm going to upload a render to the forums to show that You can achieve a very profesional proyect with vray for sketchup, why is this happening with vray for rhyno and sketchup??? I don't get it!!!! It seems a play and a toy for vray for sketchup users, please tell the vray engineers that this needs to be fixed, and Also why is this in the ui?? it doesnt work!!!, it should be hide, and Also with 250 as default as You already said before, so i was loosing gpu power since months and years ago...Jesús!!!!! This makes me angry... I Saw the image and 250 size is huge!!! And is great because they get busy all the time, and finish early the work
Thanks again for bringing back this topic, i really appreciated the effort You are taking for vray gpu for sketchup and rhyno, we need someone that knows the software and already makes a feedback, is better that You said the truth that don't Say anything , i really appreciat that Muhhamed, and please tell vray engineers that these needs to be fixed!!!

Thanks again Muhammed
Vray for Sketchup and Vray for Rhyno should be as profesional as vray for 3d max and maya!!!!!!! I don't get it!!!! size 32 for buckets in years!!!! I don't really like this i was already aware about it, but didnt find a conversation until Now

[Muhammed_Hamed]

luisgamino2

Hi Luis,

We already fixed bucket size for Vray GPU when C++/CPU is the only device used, this will be part of the next update, stay tunned
I have tested this on many scenes, it improves the rendering speed by 10% on average. And now you have less cases of stuck buckets near the end of your rendering
About GPU bucket size, we will hide this parameter in the next update. It will be assigned automatically by Vray to make sure the GPU usage is 100% or near that all the time.
We also have plans to improve bucket mode overall, I'm talking about GPU usage, CPU usage and memory consumption. This is one of our highest priorities at the moment

About resumable rendering, this is not about SketchUp plugin exclusively. Houdini and C4D doesn't have it either, I will ask about this and get back to you

Vray for SketchUp plugin is top priority to Chaos and the GPU team, I'm using this plugin myself nearly every day now

Finally I would like to say that I appreciate your feedback Luis, and I look forward to seeing your project.

Best,
Muhammed

[luisgamino2]

Hi Muhammed

Well i just used an example with the resumable rendering, sometimes we don't get this kind of great features... But it is not very important for me, i always when i do a render i wait until the render is finished, but buckets size needs to be fixed because we are loosing power, 32 buckets size is too small, this should be 256 by default as You already pointed and Also should be hide so begginers don't touch that button, i use always rtx with My 2 2080 ti with nvlink, is faster than cuda as You already said, as a feedback for example i think i never going to use out of core, if it doesnt get support by the time is fine with me, You can make some changes like texture resolution in Photoshop, or make some components proxis to feat your proyect into the vram, probably this is going to be an option for begginers that don't have a Big gpu with a Lot of vram, but im not worry about out of core, vray gpu developers should Focus on esencial things, like vray gpu light cache, buckets size, support another features like translucency, photon cáustics, i know we cant have everything, takes time and effort... But please Focus on esencial things... All vray gpu programs work with 256 as default, i think only sketchup and rhyno use that option... 32 by default, this should be fixed for cuda and rtx if You have a 1080 ti use cuda but with 256 buckets size and if You own a 2080 or 2070 or 3080 should use rtx with 256 by default, this is very important, the last feedback i like a Lot atmospheric effects, like environment fog, sometimes give a Magic touch in the renders in some conditions, but is very slow Even with GI skatter at 2 bounces, this should be improved, i hope in the future we don't see Support for out of core for rtx this is going to take years to develop, with out of core for cuda is fine, 3060 comes with 12 GB of vram, instead of that vray gpu can make some progress with environment fog, or photon cáustics, or make interactive render with gpu light cache a very stable and faster to play, this could be awesome to play like a Game in your proyect with the new gpu light cache in interactive render and make it as stable as it can be, and the last one and very important if You want to composite an interior render, support for alpha channel, i cant make a composite in an interior render if i have a glass material, You get only the composite for the inside but cant composite the outside for the glass material... This is very important!!! Very important

Thanks Muhammed