Thanks for your order ... what order?!

[AltoR]

Hi,

• I received an email from Chaos.com 2 daqys ago saying ‘Thanks, your order #________ is complete’.
At first I thought it was a scam because I hadn’t placed any recent order with Chaos.
But the email was legitimate and informed me of my purchase of the ‘V-Ray Solo’ license even though I never placed this order.

I installed VRay a month ago solely for the purpose of being able to convert VRay scenes to Corona. Since this conversion can be done without having a VRay license, I never considered buying a VRay license.
Yet yesterday Chaos informed me that my order had been processed and payment was underway…

I hate these business practices that consist of:

• not CLEARLY indicating that at the end of the 30-day trial period, the software automatically switches to commercial mode, effectively resulting in the automatic purchase of a license. I imagine it’s written somewhere in the terms and conditions, but why not mention it clearly when installing the software?? This is an information of utmost importance.

• automatically withdrawing money from the customer’s account WITHOUT warning them a few days earlier that a transaction will soon be made on their account: we receive loads of useless promotional emails, but nothing about upcoming transactions??

I call this kind of practice forced selling. I know it’s unfortunately common among big companies like Amazon etc… but until now the graphic arts sector had still escaped it. When a software trial period came to an end, you were invited to go buy a license on the publisher’s website. It was a voluntary purchase decision. It was ok. Today Chaos forces its users to pay without even asking them whether they need the software or not: it’s very disappointing.

• Today I heard back from Chaos, here’s what they say (see attached - 1). So they are refunding me, which is good.

• But: reading the email confirmation I received from them, I don’t see anywhere any mention of a 14-day cancellation period (see attached - 2).

• The screenshot - 3 is an email I received from them back in 2022, when their current policy was not in place yet.
The situation was exactly the same: I installed VRay for the sole purpose of converting VRay scenes to Corona.
At that time, their policy was much more customer friendly, as they clearly warned you few days before the trial period is over, and clearly stated if you want to keep using the software, you must purchase a license, which makes sense. But in 2025 things have changed …
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[vlado]

If you contact our support we will refund the money (if there are issues let me know). The trial page clearly says when the CC will be charged but mistakes do happen.

Also, a license (trial or not) is not required if you just want to convert stuff; you can always get the installers directly from download.chaos.com (in the “All products” tab).

Best regards,
Vlado

[pokoy]

A demo is a demo, it’s for evaluation purposes and doesn’t imply the intention to buy the product right after expiration.
Without clearly stating that you’re about to enter a contract with the company and will be charged amount X after period Y expires prior to downloading AND installing the demo, this is considered illegal in Germany (Abofalle).

Do the right thing and stop trying to construct an automatic subscription or give users a stripped down version to convert files that doesn’t automatically start charging as if they bought the product.

[vlado]

We have already provided a way to download an installer without charging anything - all installers are available from the “All products” tab at download.chaos.com

The trial page does state clearly that if you start a trial, the CC will be charged after the trial period is over.

Best regards,
Vlado

[oglu]

So you have to activly canceling the Demo?
This is evil.

[racoonart]

WTF vlado. You are now really going out of your way to defend this?! When exactly have you ever gone to a website to download a trial and said “oh, they will charge me automatically in 30 days, how convenient is that!” . You know nobody wants that, you know this is shady business practices - no matter how often you insist that it’s fine when it’s written somewhere on the website. If you wanted to provide people the “non-charging-demo” you’d put it first thing on the website. You don’t hide it somewhere you know people won’t find it.

Man this shit makes me furious. Chaos is now full on corporate hellhole, that’s not news, but I expected better from you. I’m done with chaos.

[oglu]

I grab some popcorn. This will explode today.

[pokoy]

@vlado

We have already provided a way to download an installer without charging anything - all installers are available from the “All products” tab at download.chaos.com

The trial page does state clearly that if you start a trial, the CC will be charged after the trial period is over.

Best regards,
Vlado

Wait, an installer that you don’t pay for is… implying exactly the opposite - a non-paid product.
The blue button says ‘start your trial’ not ‘buy a product’, which it should do if that’s what it eventually does. The fine print does contradict the ‘free trial’ bit at best.

Whatever you guys did there - and surely you had a few lawyers look over it - it *is* misleading and you *did* charge at least one person without him understanding the implication of an automatic subscription.
Worse is, this is what you do to your customers, for example Corona users, who just want to convert a few files. Their credit card information is already in their accounts so just by installing a product you are constructing a valid contract. It’s wrong on so many levels…

You do know that when buying a product, or starting any contract followed by a fee, the button absolutely needs to say ‘buy’ and not be misleading in any way?

[fixeighted]

@vlado

The trial page does state clearly that if you start a trial, the CC will be charged after the trial period is over.

But why do this? It is so absolutely obviously a tactic that is tried and tested and yields revenue when the potential customer forgets, or otherwise cannot manage to
gain support to cancel before the trial is over.

I’m not saying it is directly ‘your’ tactic but I’d guess that your marketers are all over these strategies and know the numbers.

Where is the logic in continued antagonisation of potential or existing customers by having systems in place that demonstrably are not conducive to a stress-free relationship with
what many still (mistakenly now of course) think is ‘your’ company?

My own experience recently was a complete nightmare and caused very unnecessary stress, leading me to need to post aggressively to gain an ultimate resolution.
How does that help anyone at all?

You can point to this or that as a ‘reason’ for any of the above but the result is seemingly becoming a unanimous ebbing away of good feeling towards Chaos as a whole, which is just sad.

[kosso_olli]

Wow, this is shady business indeed.

[Pixelcon]

@fixeighted

Where is the logic in continued antagonisation of potential or existing customers by having systems in place that demonstrably are not conducive to a stress-free relationship with
what many still (mistakenly now of course) think is ‘your’ company?

Presumably that is the direction the people in the C suite thinks is the most profitable. Quantity of seats takes a higher prio than customer satisfaction. Perhaps there will be a shift in sentiment if and when seats are lost to a competitor and Chaos needs to adjust their offering.
Right now Chaos is in a dominant position but the landscape is changing so much, who knows where we, or they will be in a couple of years time.

The day I can say goodbye to Max and Vray is going to be a milestone…

[fixeighted]

I’d guess that the main revenue is coming from film/tv/large archviz companies, where there is maybe one admin covering scores or hundreds of seats. They wouldn’t have the same concerns possibly, and when there are issues they
presumably get a bespoke and speedy service, given the money involved in those subs.
So it’s mainly freelancers or casual users that feel aggrieved for the most part.

[Pixelcon]

@fixeighted

I’d guess that the main revenue is coming from film/tv/large archviz companies, where there is maybe one admin covering scores or hundreds of seats. They wouldn’t have the same concerns possibly, and when there are issues they
presumably get a bespoke and speedy service, given the money involved in those subs.
So it’s mainly freelancers or casual users that feel aggrieved for the most part.

Yes it is odd to ‘nickle and dime’ the smaller users…

[ChuckRT]

This happened to me a couple of weeks, altough I did wanted to test some vantage stuff, fortunately they couldnt charge me since I used a Paypal account with no credit card info.
Even when the page clarify this, this is not ideal, this only get people angry and they will not test anything, hopely this absurd process will change back

[Buck]

I’m pretty sure this fairly common practice for 30-day free trial periods, at least here in the US. Any time I have signed up for a trial period of something in the past, I’ve always set a reminder for 25 days later or what ever, to cancel my trial so that I don’t forget to do so if I end up not needing the services.

[fixeighted]

Common or not, there’s only one reason anyone does it. It’s to gain revenue from those who for whatever reason do not cancel the ‘trial’, even though it’s inadvertent. There are subsets of shenanigans that have been/are employed by
companies to further obfuscate the cancellation process, some of which has been/is still being addressed by various regions law enforcement processes.

I honestly cannot see what the issue is from their side. If they offer a trial that just stops after the trial period, nobody would complain. Why the lock-in?
If someone from Chaos can provide a rationale for that, then good. Otherwise, shady practice.

[pokoy]

So… why, even after all these years, there’s no clean solution for customers of the same software house, to easily convert assets between two renderers developed and maintained by the same company? A care-free license for a UI-only seat, non-expiring limited demo etc, plenty room for a solution that would not end up screwing your own customers. IF someone wanted it, that is.

As for the EU > US comment… let’s just say the button labeled ‘Cancel subscription’ on my Adobe account page does what it says.

[glorybound]

Every trial I have ever started does this; you have to cancel before the trial ends. The bad part is when you cancel an you are still billed - that is what upsets me.

[AltoR]

@vlado

If you contact our support we will refund the money (if there are issues let me know). The trial page clearly says when the CC will be charged but mistakes do happen.

Also, a license (trial or not) is not required if you just want to convert stuff; you can always get the installers directly from download.chaos.com (in the “All products” tab).

Best regards,
Vlado

Hi Vlado,

I can see a refund entry on my bank account, with the status ‘pending’, so that’s fine, the refund is in progress, except for 19 euros in currency conversion fees.
I don’t remember where I went to download VRay, but I don’t think it was on the ‘Trials’ page, otherwise I probably would have seen the message regarding payment.

[hartherb_jj]

@pokoy

So… why, even after all these years, there’s no clean solution for customers of the same software house, to easily convert assets between two renderers developed and maintained by the same company? A care-free license for a UI-only seat, non-expiring limited demo etc, plenty room for a solution that would not end up screwing your own customers. IF someone wanted it, that is.

To be fair, as Vlado also stated, this is possible. Simply go to your download page, download V-Ray or Corona, and install them. There’s no need for a license or trial.
I’m so used to just installing both that I never really thought about how it’s not obvious if you don’t know about it. It could definitely be made a bit clearer.
Still, thank you, Chaos, for providing a free way to convert.