wip from our new musicvideo with vray

[jujubee]

'Liking' is a matter of opinion. That's all I am saying is that people can be quite hurtful when they say that they 'don't like' something. There were several posts here which stated this but not all gave specific reasons for- and some which were intent on putting down someone's work to make themselves feel superior. Those are the wrong reasons IMO to be posting an opinion. Plus, posts like those do not make it easier for the rest of us to want to put 'our' work up on the 'chopping block.' It takes balls to put any work up on this forum. There's alot of great 3d artists I know who will not put stuff up on forums because they are afraid of how mean-spirited people can be. It's a shame that some people have made them uncomfortable sharing their work.

If you have the time to state something on this forum, it is a kinder and gentler approach to state the reasons for your likes and dislikes. It's called constructive criticism- something which we should all try to become better at practicing. When I post, I always try to state both sides of the story.

*********************************************

As for my critique of the video (music aside), it wasn't my favorite storyline or animation. There's always room for improvement. I had trouble getting past the fact that the video of the people didn't quite match up with the cg character although it seemed to try to do that. I've seen 'cleaner' usage of poser figures. I don't know why someone mentioned they had trouble with seeing the textures. That's just really being anal. They didn't cross my mind in the least.

For this to be produced in 18 days by probably a tiny outfit, I have to give them some big credit. I'm not much of an animator so this is more than I can do presently- even with some fast machines. I don't know if I could squeeze something like this out in this amount of time. And for that I have to applaude them.

Beyond this opinion, I have to give the artist some credit. The video is more entertaining than 95% of all the crap on MTV presently. Just flip on the TV and you'll see what I mean visually. Rap starts, bling bling, hot babes to entice you, and 'rockers' surrounded by juvenile jumping audiences have sadly become the boring norm. Can't say that there is much innovation there. For this reason I find this video to be more entertaining than most. Than again you're probably not talking about a huge $250,000 US video budget.

Musically this is a completely different story but that's for a different forum. Don't confuse the music with vray and the animation sequences.

Good job guys overall on your work. I'd like to see some more posts of yours in the future.

-jujubee

[f97ao]

Hmm. What is the matter with some of you. He got a job and did it super fast and wanted your opinion on it. I don't think he cares much about the music either. Remember for some in here this is work..... not always art but a way to get money. And you use the tools you can get. If you want to show of your awesome modeling skills well then you model it by hand but if say Poser, hey you could even write the vertex info in a txt file that ought to be the hardest. But if you are on a tight deadline and need to get the job done you don't always have this luxury.

No offence but it would be nicer if we didn't use "hacker slang" like 'u' 'plz'. This doesn't not look professional and takes longer to read.

/Andreas

[JK]

This is indeed an interesting area that covers allsorts of things ranging from the 'what is art?' question, how we define it and what is and isn't acceptable, to the integrity and skill of the 'artist'.

The real question, I believe, is one of ethics. Is it morally correct to do nothing more than assemble various pieces of other peoples work (which everyone has access to), perhaps modify it slightly (the source is still often recognisable) and then slap it on a forum and call it a piece of art and then expect praise and adoration for what is essentially recylced and therefore lacking true creativity and originality? Each person will have their own answer to that but I think it undermines those artists that go to the effort of learning how to model a character through torturous years of very hard work. Learning how to paint a texture in photoshop is no easy task. Even going out and photographing your own textures is at least original, and requires more initiative and thought than the alternative.

Some of these guys may not reach the quality of the pictures originally posted in this thread, but that's because the likelyhood is that neither could the author who resorted to stock models. The fact is most of it is not really his work and so imo, those that take the effort to at least try and do their own thing deserve more kudos due to the fact they did so with an integrity and effort that is clear enough to see for all those knowledgable enough to know about the processes involved. So first and foremost, it earns my respect. The images in this thread do not.

I concede that it's indeed often necessary for a *business* to use pre-made models and other stock stuff. It's inevitable that shortcuts will be taken to finish things in time for a deadline, and so elements of artistic integrity have to be sacrificed as it's mostly about making money. The general public and the clients are often naive and sadly unaware of anything other than the final image, regardless of how it was achieved. But is it really art and the work of an *artist* or a technician with some computer/scientific knowledge? There seems to be a blurry line regarding this as the two are quite closely related in the world of 3D graphics and so some people swing to both extremes. Some would argue that because the final image is what matters most that therefore it does not matter how the work was created. In a business sense that may be true, but in the personal sense I think it does. To put your arse on the line in a forum like this, asking for critique is to subject your real artistic talent to opinions. If you use stock stuff then you know that some people will question your real value as an *artist*

I've also read some rather silly arguments regarding crediting the tools, using a poser model is not a tool, it's part of the finished image, there's a clear distinction.

I think that anyone can be called an 'artist' these days which is imo, quite sad. Due to the fact we are subjected to allsorts of visual imagery which is often (wrongly) given the time of day due to a culture that is often somewhat lacking, crediting those that in all honesty do not deserve it to the detriment and expense of those that perhaps do. Anyone that has ever watched the Turner Prize in the UK will probably laugh how Tracey Emin had a crap in her bed and managed to win first prize for it (and 50 thousand pounds). Calling something like that 'art' is ludicrous, the line has to be drawn somewhere surely? What does it say to those that have spent a lifetime learning the tools of their trade, the techniques, the hours of studying and the self-pride involved because the belief that art should involve some craftmanship and real, honest skill. Assembly line art or true innovation and creativity?

It's possibly a reflection of the state of our culture, but those that do go to the time and effort have one thing that can never be taken away. An honesty to ones self, and hopefully real skills that are required by those that value it.

[taboo]

hey Jk...
i am with you... good ideas...

I am telling you... it is a very very intersting topic.
i will write and essay about it soon.

again.... i love this forum, even if we all lost the topic of this tread.

[egz]

Interesting input JK, I'm a little too pressed for time to reply properly at the moment. Deadlines looming again :-/

The question of what is art is a very interesting one, and I guess the difinition changes constantly. I suspect you won't agree with my point of view Can commercial jobs even qualify as art? and is it even correct to critique them as such? In this case Sennholz never called his video art.

I've got to get back to work, but I'll try to jump back in the discussion later

[f.sennholz]

i swear to myself that i dont answer to this but...wow, so much emotions, very nice. all about some entertainment. this MUST be art, when so many people have so deep emotions about it . its so hard that my english is not good enough, but anyway, i try to say it. first of all: nothing could be less important to me then the question "is this art what they do ?" because the answer dont pay my bills. i work as director and 3d "artist" or 3d worker, what ever you want. two kind of people are important for my work: first my customers, second the people who watch my videos, even when some people think this is crap, there are MILLIONS of people , not only in germany, who saw them. and many many people like them. not so bad for some crappy non artist like me. i know everybody can buy some models and make videos , but funny, very few do this...why ? its so easy, isnt it ? iam no "artist", but iam on raph.com ... hm..why ? even we create actually a 3d tv series, who wants to see that ? because i have no vision and so on. easy to say about someone you dont know .
well, some people believe we have a very strong vision and gives us the chance to do something complety new.
and yes, i even think the baddest video from us is funnyer and more interesting to watch then 90% of the chicka +rock videos. thats the reason why we get jobs and money every month. we create a virtual pop band "mandy + randy" they makin the 2nd album now, many emails send to us everyday where people tell us why they like our work and so on.
thats important because nearly no one of them is an "3dartist". you understand ? we made first place at the european "animago" in many categorys, why ? ah, i know, all the others are shit (especially german studios) ? hm... ,-) i post this videos here for your entertainment, because i thougt in a forum where mostly walls and balls and cars are showed, it could be funny to see some moving images made with vray, this is a vray forum and not the elementary art school. dont missunderstood, i like those typical vray forum images but some other things could be nice sometimes, i thought, but what a mistake. i dont make this videos alone, there is my team, now body ask for their credits, but hey, its a musicvideo , you never see the credits on mtv. for me it makes no difference if someone from my team model something or if i buy it on turbosquid. with hard deadlines i cant and dont want to model the 1000th space ship + or char and no one pays for it. iam sure your customers (if u have some) do that, my not. so i have two ways: "no, you ugly customer, i dont work for you, i dont want your money, iam an artitst i need 6 month for this " or i say "ok i can do this", why not, its my job to do this. there is one model / texture, it fits to the story, i buy it, where is the difference ? there are not so many people doing this job we do, so its funny when people critique something what they never did self. and definetly not in that time. common, cool critique guys, post all your short movies and videos, then you can tell ME something about it. then i maybe think about your critiques, but i guess you show it when its "real art" right ? maybe nobody can ever see some of these movies, my pieces are on tv everyday, no problem if someone dont like it, but man, how this here works, i think i never post something again. there is no professionell distance from SOME people.."bla bla all is shit, you are no real artist" or "do all german studios make crap like this ?". come down, this is not elementary school , this is kindergarten. THIS is REAL boring. same to that "stolen design story" men, where u live ? did you ever work with real customers ? they dont discuss. they give me screenshots of the björkvideo and say "can u do that ? " belive me i say "yes but what about a complete different thing ?" they dont care, you know, they want it like this, its boring, but ok, thats the way they want it and we did it. if not someone else do it. btw: there are so many clones from that video outhere, but i belive the people who made them dont want to make them, but the customers want it. thats the way things going. and yes, i dont like most of the music, but i dont must, because iam a professional.

so guys, have a nice day, go and make some art and show it here and the world, make some cool movies, too. for me, this is finish.

[flipside]

Hey dude, don't let some people get you down! It's just a small minority here that was making all the fuzz.

I like your posts, and when I saw that video on belgian tv here, I thought "cool, I saw this on the vray forum too!". Nomatter if it's great art or not (this is an endless discussion), when I see things in public that I know are made with vray because the creators hang around here too, I feel very proud to be a member here!

Give me all your poser models and textures, and I'm sure I can't make a video like that, and i'm sure many others here can't do it either.

So, I want to see your next video posted here on this forum!

Regards,

flipside

[J_Bug]

Please don't get discouraged f.sennho

I really like to see your work when you post it

It is very inspiring

--Jon

[taboo]

f.sennholz, i know that you are think that way.....
please dont take my comments personally.
( screw that f..king clients )

Keep up the good work!

[3dworld]

dear mr sennholz

good posting but please tell us why do you dont writte what a software you use? this is a forum and not MTV
when i saw your work and promotions (characters) for 3dmax software
[all characters was made by poser] - was this very funny

this is no problem that your company use modells from shops but
please make no promotion for soulpix with this that is not serious
for a company !

i hope we can see more works from you

[RErender]

3dworld, isn't using poser just like using rhino, Autocad, z-brush etc etc to model? just that is has a bit more complex primitives? If it is such a crime to use these assets in a renderer like max why do they support export to a format Max can import ? Your argument is, as has been said, very juvenile, I have a hard time believing that you are a profesional but if you are I suspect you have lost a few clients to these guys and are just being vindictive.

[gl0w]

mr senholz,
i am sure you have the greatest ego in the 3d scene.
i am sorry that some of us have dared to critique your art.

[3dworld]

hello RErender yes sure....

I can make it too import one character from "Poser" and put my credits: by 3dworld.

But is this good promotion for me? (or Max)

[flipside]

and there we go again...

[percydaman]

ugh for the second time, can we just lay it to rest?