Creative Control

[glorybound]

Usually, I have creative control over almost everything. I use what I know about color and art theory and composition. A lot of what I have learned over the decade has been from this forum, and I know many of you know what you are doing. In two recent projects, my clients called all the shots against my advice, and their images shouldn't see the light of day. One, they hired a marketing firm, and the guy is clueless. He is directing things like moving the sun in front of the camera and using a dramatic sky with sun rays coming out of it. He picked all the views, and there is absolutely no focal point in any of them. My client says that he doesn't like the images, and I told him that neither do I; he hired the marketing guy, I didn't. My client and the marketing guy were on the same ZOOM calls, and I clearly gave my opinion on many things, but my opinion didn't count for much. Some of the comments I audibly cringed, but he was insistent.

At what point do you guys through up your hands and do what you are told, knowing the image will fail? I am going to tell this client not to give me a mention when he uses these images. We are at a point that they are out of revisions and out of money. Do you have anything in your contract that says that they have to give creative control if they want a good image? I watch a car show, and often the guy refuses to do what he is told because "that's not what he does. I remember one time his client wanted to paint the car a different color than the car code, so he gave the car back to his client and said, "no, take it somewhere else." Another time it was an all-matching car and the client wanted to change the engine, but again, the shop refused.

Any thought?

[flino2004]

depending on what kind of business you have you may be right or wrong. If you are offering renderings where the client picks the camera and the look you are wrong...if you are an agency where you are a storyteller, art director, etc you are right.

[glorybound]

The two should probably be one and the same. I mean, why else hire someone like us?

[flino2004]

because they need a graphic representation of what they have in mind... if they don't have an idea your opinion would be more important.

[glorybound]

Well, they sure had an opinion. Do you go to a baker and tell the baker what to put in the cake batter? You can get a Dunkin Donut for $1 or a Donutopia donut, which is $100. Both are donuts, but you pay more for a better donut; both you let them make their donut.

[francomanko]

Its something you would need to stipulate up front..then it comes down to how much they want you to work with you...otherwise all you can to is offer advice and 'enjoy' the ride

[flino2004]

Well, they sure had an opinion. Do you go to a baker and tell the baker what to put in the cake batter? You can get a Dunkin Donut for $1 or a Donutopia donut, which is $100. Both are donuts, but you pay more for a better donut; both you let them make their donut.

They have their own recipes... you pay for the flavor. If you are doing renderings of a design (it's not yours) and the client only needs a simple marketing material is one thing you are Dunkin Donut. If you are going to add value by telling a story with emotional views with cinematography composition and the client came to you for that expertise...Yes, you are the chef of the donut with your recipe.

[glorybound]

From now on you can refer to me as chief donut! It reminds me of the Edsel. The US government asked the American people what kind of car they wanted. They took the information, built the Edsel, and everyone hated it and it was a flop. These images are a flop!

[francomanko]

lets have a look!

[glorybound]

Heck no! I don’t want my name anywhere around it.

[rusteberg]

Heck no! I don’t want my name anywhere around it.

Well in that case you have two options:

1.) Shut up, work on it, get paid, move on.
2.) Don't work on it.

This is super simple stuff. Carpet samples and paint colors... You're not fighting isis or sending monkeys to the moon.

If you have no perseverance for inflated egos then you are in the wrong business.

[glorybound]

I once worked for a firm that hired a starchitect. Talk about an ego... he came into my office and told me that he didn't want any shadows on his renderings. He wanted the sun behind the camera and nothing between the camera and his architecture. He always wanted his camera 15+ feet off the ground and many other things that almost guaranteed failure. The guy was a fraud, faked his license, and cost the company much money in fines. Needless to say, he was fired, sued, and moved on to another state. We owe our clients a duty to lead them in the right direction, and if we see something wrong, they pay us to say something. I think we owe our craft some respect too. It is far from carpet samples and paints colors. That is the non-subjective and easy part and where most people stop. That, my friend, is a commodity and can be found on Fiverr. I am not playing the race to the bottom game. The majority of my clients are collaborative people and appreciate anything that'll make their image better. They often have fantastic ideas, and it works, but when a bonehead comes along and tells me something obviously wrong, I get offended. We agree to work together, and if someone like this comes back, I'll simply refuse to work with them again. We are not selling widgets... I'll be happy to send these clients your way .

I know that this is a topic of discussion in our industry because I watched several interviews with studios going to no revisions. If you hire them, you get what they create. You hire them based on their portfolio, so you let them do what they do. I give two grayscale revisions and two-color revisions; however, I push back when they want to make poor decisions. I have fired several clients because of this. Here is your money back and the model so far, good luck!

[JezUK]

Usually, I have creative control over almost everything. I use what I know about color and art theory and composition. A lot of what I have learned over the decade has been from this forum, and I know many of you know what you are doing. In two recent projects, my clients called all the shots against my advice, and their images shouldn't see the light of day. One, they hired a marketing firm, and the guy is clueless. He is directing things like moving the sun in front of the camera and using a dramatic sky with sun rays coming out of it. He picked all the views, and there is absolutely no focal point in any of them. My client says that he doesn't like the images, and I told him that neither do I; he hired the marketing guy, I didn't. My client and the marketing guy were on the same ZOOM calls, and I clearly gave my opinion on many things, but my opinion didn't count for much. Some of the comments I audibly cringed, but he was insistent.

At what point do you guys through up your hands and do what you are told, knowing the image will fail? I am going to tell this client not to give me a mention when he uses these images. We are at a point that they are out of revisions and out of money. Do you have anything in your contract that says that they have to give creative control if they want a good image? I watch a car show, and often the guy refuses to do what he is told because "that's not what he does. I remember one time his client wanted to paint the car a different color than the car code, so he gave the car back to his client and said, "no, take it somewhere else." Another time it was an all-matching car and the client wanted to change the engine, but again, the shop refused.

Any thought?

Yes, but did your client not like the images because you didn't manage to pull off what the marketing guy requested ? Or did you do exactly as the marketing guy asked, and it didn't work ?

What this sounds like what's happened to me, is what I call 'design' time. Something I'm very clear and upfront right at the very start with my clients, because whilst I do have design awareness (a lot more than most), I do not sell myself as a designer and that is not what I'm offering.

'design' time is all well and good if clients are paying you/me by the hour etc, but nearly 100% of my work is fixed price. So there is no design, try this, try that, they come with their ideas/brief and I execute that, turn it into a 3D visual.

If they were to say 'we want you to follow this guy's lead, do as he says' then my job would be to execute what he/she wants.

Maybe you simply shouldn't have taken this job on - as you seemed to know it wouldn't go well in the first place. Something to remember for future new clients/offers.

[glorybound]

In this scenario, the architect did his marketing renderings in Lumion, and they were not good. The architect hired the marketing firm to lead him in creating the images. He reached out to me, saying that his software wasn't good enough and mine must be better. We had a long conversation about the software being a tool and I saw some excellent work from the Lumion community. He admitted that he doesn't have the time or energy to do better (humble). He put the marketing company in touch with me, told me that they will be in charge of making decisions, and the rest is history. After four iterations (I gave two extra), the images were not much better than his, and he is confused and out of money. I explained that all the mistakes that made his images not work were repeated here. I told a story about me being asked to teach a class at Autodesk University one year in those initial conversations. I didn't open the software; my whole class was on color and art theory, along with composition. The course got lousy student reviews, and I wasn't asked to come back; the complaint was, "how can we learn to create renderings without opening the software."

I got my education from Chaos forum U. Early on, there were some talented people here (still are) who were excellent at giving constructive criticism. I saw a change coming in our industry; I knew the status quo wasn't going to cut it, so I spent years studying art and color theories. Someone here said, "you are doing everything technically right, but you are missing the creative's eye!". I was told to study art theory and composition. I was advised by a lot to buy a DSL and start taking photos. My point is, I work hard to create the right image, and I understand most won't even know why it is good, but they just know it is. Why hire someone to do a job based on their portfolio, and try to call all the shots?

We talk ego. In my life's experience, ago is insecurity and is a red flag. The smartest people I know are humble and always wanting to learn. I was married to a doctor who appreciated everyone's opinion. I also dated a Ph.D. who marveled at other people's talents and skills. I just got back from a guy I thought was a doctor and had an ego the size of Mt. Everest. He looked at my records and mocked everything all the doctors have done over the years. It was a major red flag, I looked him up, and he wasn't a doctor at all. He was a recent graduate and is a nurse practitioner. Nothing against a nurse practitioner, I am now married to one, but my wife is as humble as they come and always say, "I am not a doctor, so let's talk to one."

I don't know about you, but I get people coming to me, saying I am much more expensive than others, but admit my work is better. They go the cheap route and often, they come back to me because the cheap route didn't work and now came out more expensive. If you want to be working in this industry over the next decade, you have to do more than build a model and slap color and materials on it, unless you like working for peanuts. My opinion, of course.

This job, I think I am going to finish his images, release them and get paid, and then do them over right. When done right I'll hand them over to my client.

[JezUK]

Not really sure why you're saying all this stuff.

Seriously, what is the point of this ?