Gotta Vent

[jow]

Re: Why is Evolution only up for debate in the States

I might be compeletly wrong on this but growing up in Ireland ( deeply Religious society) I never once remember Evolution being anything other then an accepted fact, it was not a point of debate - through any of my religion classes college or pub conversations. In Ireland Evolution and Jesus Christ seem to be able to co-exist. Why do American Christians seem to have such big problems with it?

Maybe it is just on of those uniquely American Religious Anomalies like Pat Robertson or Rapture.

I might be wrong on this but i think Evolution wasn't made compulsory in American schools until the mid 80's.
As i said i could be wrong.....

[Frances]

The Creation story from the Bible is an alleghory for evolution. Almost step by step.

Far from it. The Genesis account of creation has the plants being formed prior to the sun. It has the fish and birds before the insect and land animals. This is not only contray to evolution, it is contray to what we would perceive as natural. Again I point to this
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ42.html

How much do you think guys around a campfire understood about evolution 6000 years ago?

[visualride]

BTW, the only reason I continue to use this site as an example is that the guy lives in the same city as me and I have gotten to meet him and hear him talk a bit. The guy is many times smarter than I am. He is a retired Air Force Colonel and holds a Ph.D in engineering from MIT. And funny enough, he claims to have beleived in evolution for years and it was by studing it deeper for some years that this guy changed his mind about it.

Go to the conspiracy theory sites and look at the pedigree of some of the followers who believe that we never went to the moon, or for that mater, practically believe that the world is flat.

The reason that a televised debate hasn't happened for evolution is that it would put a foot in the door for this "debate" to be legit. It's easy to convolute such a debate with scripture, leaving a last impression of a possibility of legitimacy, even if not proving a thing. Obviously someone took the bait about this 'idea' putting all science in the category of witch doctors.

[charleyc]

The Creation story from the Bible is an alleghory for evolution. Almost step by step.

Far from it. The Genesis account of creation has the plants being formed prior to the sun. It has the fish and birds before the insect and land animals. This is not only contray to evolution, it is contray to what we would perceive as natural. Again I point to this
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ42.html

How much do you think guys around a campfire understood about evolution 6000 years ago?

Genesis was written by a man scholared in Egypt as a pharos son. No one was there to witness creatin except God. It stands to reason that the account in Gods book would have been given by him. And if you believe that he wasn't smart enough to know what to have put in the account of Genesis, then you don't beleive in the God of the bible.

I don't care what others want to believe as far as the origin of life. But the bible states it is the true word of God, changing it to fit beliefs that are not taught in it by people who do not believe it seems a strange thing.

[jujubee]

As it sits now, evolution is as much in the realm of supernatural as creation.

I think Creationism and Evolution should both be taught in the classroom equally. But, if you are going to teach those two systems, you should also give equal, unbiased weight to all the world's various religions and their creationism stories. I think that would be a fair compromise for everyone.

[charleyc]

As it sits now, evolution is as much in the realm of supernatural as creation.

I think Creationism and Evolution should both be taught in the classroom equally. But, if you are going to teach those two systems, you should also give equal, unbiased weight to all the world's various religions and their creationism stories. I think that would be a fair compromise for everyone.

Actually I think that creation can be easily taught as intellegent design by a greater being and avoid the entire issue of religion altogether. As you say, there are many beleifs that incorporate a creator. I do agree that schools should not teach any specific religion. That is one of the goals of the creationscience site.

[visualride]

Actually I think that creation can be easily taught as intellegent design by a greater being and avoid the entire issue of religion altogether.

You mean a being who is great enough to not be brain washed into not believing in evolution. Pull your head out of your book, and have a look around. All dogs were like wolves less than 15,000 years ago, we were, on average almost a foot shorter just a hundred years ago, ...etc., etc., etc.. I suggest that you relax, open up a science site and read with an open mind all the wonderous discoveries happening daily that explain down to the atomic level how, and why life came about.

If you find this offensive, I'm sorry, but being politically correct all the time gets us into the current mess with schools that we find ourselves in.

[DaForce]

I choose to think that anything positive that happens in my life... be it a new job, a raise, finding $50 in the street, surviving thru major surgery, finding someone to truly love...whatever has come around because of my own merits, skills and luck or other peoples skills for that matter.
Why should i thank some alleged "greater being" for getting a new job, I got it because I was better than the rest, the $50 in the street was because it slipped out of someones pocket..etc..etc..you get my point

Plus I LOVE sleeping in on Sundays

visualride:
Agreed... totally agreed

[charleyc]

I am not offended. I just do not agree with you.

[Adam H. Stewart]

Please no - not intelligent design

Not Intelligent Design, it is such a wedge subject, it has nothing to do with science in any shape or form and it's sole purpose it so sneakily bring religion into the classroom. I am sure you are well aware of the Creationist musuem where they have human beings riding on the back of Dinosaurs - like the flintstones. I think the current excuse for the existence of Dinosaurs is they are trap planted by the devil to misguide us ( who am I to say they are wrong, he is always telling people to cheat on their wives, drink, steal, fight, do drugs - that devil is a crafty Bugger !! )

You have to laugh really when Mr. Bush comes out and tells the American people that this country is lagging on the scientific front and he wants to spur the education of Scientists - a noble sentiment. It is true this country is falling behind the emerging nations of India, China and Yippiee even Ireland !!! in the percentage of scientists and engineers it is educating. With debates like intelligent design going on CNN is it really any wonder nobody wants to study it? Hey kids go study science, it's cool - but watch out for those bad men who talk about Evolution and Climate Change, Aids(reference to Ronald Reagan) or stem cel research. What a joke !!

[mmikee]

This has been a very cool thread. I like debate and hearing others opinions. I just want to say that I respect the opinions of all who are posting here. I hope that no one has been offended (I am going to need
lots of advice on Vray and max :P ) This community is simply the coolest,
most diverse group of people I have ever been apart of. This thread just
proves that again.

[charleyc]

I suppose I should qualify the term evolution as I have been using it. I am using it as the method for the origin of life. Evolution within species is a given fact and in my opinion not up for debate. However, there is no evidence what so ever for one species to have ever evolved into another.

Many of you seem quite ignorant of the many major problems with evolutionary explanation for life. You make belligerent comments about creationist, but yet none of you have ever looked into the evidence. I have and do read about evolution. I watch the shows on discovery channel. I learn what I can.

Here is an excerpt from the book online at creationscience.com;

Let me define science.

science: A field of study seeking to better understand natural phenomena through the use of observations and experiments.

Broad, but increasingly precise and concise, relationships are sought between causes and effects. These relationships, called scientific laws, help predict future phenomena and explain past events.

Notice, this does not mean the first cause must be naturalistic. It is poor logic to say that because science deals with natural, cause-and-effect relationships, the first cause must be a natural event. Furthermore, if the first cause were a natural consequence of something else, it would not be the first cause. Scientific laws can provide great insight on ultimate origins even though the first cause cannot, by definition, be duplicated. Yes, there was a beginning. [See Items 53 and 55 beginning on page 27.]

Scientific conclusions, while never final, must be based on evidence.

scientific evidence: Something that has been observed with instruments or our senses, is verifiable, and helps support or refute possible explanations for phenomena.

All evidence in Part I of this book is based on observable, natural phenomena that others can check. To most people, this evidence implies a creation and a global flood. This does not mean the Creator (The First Cause) can be studied scientifically or that the Bible should be read in public-school science classes. (I have always opposed that.) Those who want evolution taught without the clear evidence opposing it, in effect, wish to censor a large body of scientific evidence from schools. That is wrong. Also, the consequences of a global flood have been misinterpreted as evidence for evolution, not as evidence for a flood. That misinterpretation, unfortunately, is taught as science. [See Part II.]

In The Beginning by Walt Brown.

[jujubee]

You make belligerent comments about creationist, but yet none of you have ever looked into the evidence.

What evidence on your part? There is no evidence.

However, there is no evidence what so ever for one species to have ever evolved into another.

Evolution as it's proposed can occur over millions and millions of year or even within the matter of dozens. It's a progression based on an environmental adaptation and survival. There's two thoughts of evolutionary progression - one which evolution occurs in linear progression and the other which is marked by steps and plateaus. It's not something which you can watch overnight and expect to see results. It was never proposed that Homo Sapiens Sapiens (modern humans) evolved from Homidae Gorilla Gorilla. What is proposed is that our ancestors have a common ancestor (a branched evolution) going beyond 3-4 million years ago (according to what one can find in the fossil record.) Changes are very minimal - often not noticeable.

I must stress evolution is considered a widely accepted theory. No one ever claimed it was a fact.

But feel free to go back to thinking that the world is flat. People also used to think if you drove faster than a horse, your face would tear off. They also used to think reading by candlelight was the devil's work. People also used to think harnessing electricity was going against god's will.

This article just came on Discover today:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/0...01-101-ae-0000

[charleyc]

Read this book if you are really interested in knowing what the evidence is, or whether or not it is scientific. I really think you guys might be surprised, even if you do not choose to come to the same conclusions the author did.
www.creationscience.com

While very interesting, that article shows an example of inter-species evolution. The bird did not turn into another animal. The 'missing link' should exist in abundance as there should be millions of years worth of them.

Anyway, Jujubee, I had fun.

See you guys in another thread.

[jujubee]

While very interesting, that article shows an example of inter-species evolution. The bird did not turn into another animal

LOL. I guess he wants real-time rendering too.