Gotta Vent

[mmikee]

So the nasty arabs bomb your twin towers, and a whole nation, under the banner of a Jesus chosen (in his PUBLIC personal view, of course) president, goes and bombs them to smitherens for years?
Is there no RELIGIOUS conscience to scream out loud, and move the faithful christians which meditate on the bible to protest on the streets?

Somebody has to fight the terrorist. We cannot just sit back and hope they
will stop wanting to wipe us of the face of the earth.
If someone is threatening your family, do you think that jesus was saying
to sit by and let them do whatever they will ?
Bush is not the greatest president, for sure, but someone had to do something. I am not sure what the best plan of action is, but there must
be action.

[RErender]

In the new testament, a LATE appendix to the bible,

Late appendix? the New testament was penned by men that lived during and immediately following the very advent of Christianity.

Jesus Christ said with NO possible reason of doubt over the meaning "Love thy neighbour as you love yourself."
It was no opinion, it was a commandment.
I say Juju scores one for eyesight, at least.
What's left of it, i wonder, in the world's churches, which accept state propaganda and justify the ends of that through distortion of the sacred texts?

I agree with Juju that it is a common sin of many Christians is to be judgmental, But this action in no way indicts the Bible or Christianity as it is clearly stated that this is not acceptable.

Moses, ten commandments: "Thou shalt not kill"
It NEVER made a distinction.
What's a crusade, then?
Past and present.

The Hebrew text uses the word "ratsach" Its usage almost always for murder. If this was not the intent then it is almost immediately contradicted in the Law of Moses which clearly defines the punishment of breaking certain laws as death. It is unlikely that such a mistake would have been made.

Jesus, to Peter, in one of the worst moments of Jesus' own life:
"Put up the sword into the sheath: the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

This does not apply to your aguement, Christ knew why he was sent to earth and that it was his destiny.

Or again, Matthew 5:38 through to 5:42

"Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Here Christ is defining interpersonal relations, surely you are familiar with the statement "a slap on the cheek" as an insult, He is saying that it is better not to retaliate in kind. This does not contradict the Laws of Moses and the penalties for murder.

And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

I am not clear on how this applies to your arguement

And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

Again I am sure how this applies to your argument but the jist is that if someone forces you to do something, by going further we change someone's attempt to manipulate us into our free act of love.

So the nasty arabs bomb your twin towers, and a whole nation, under the banner of a Jesus chosen (in his PUBLIC personal view, of course) president, goes and bombs them to smitherens for years?
Is there no RELIGIOUS conscience to scream out loud, and move the faithful christians which meditate on the bible to protest on the streets?

I don't think we can lump everything going on in the middle east into one action but the specific actions against Bin Laden and his thugs is not in contradiction with the Bible and as such is not something that needs to be protested.

[charleyc]

Again, please don't confuse morals with the end results. Treat others like you would want to be treated and that should generally be a good enough insurance policy when/if you meet your "maker."

According to you, but not according to the bible.

In the new testament, a LATE appendix to the bible, Jesus Christ said with NO possible reason of doubt over the meaning "Love thy neighbour as you love yourself."
It was no opinion, it was a commandment.
I say Juju scores one for eyesight, at least.

Juju is right, that is how we should live, but the bible is very clear on how to attain salvation. According to the bible, living right does not get you any insurance with God concerning salvation. I wont quote them, but here are a few places to look at;
Romans 3:23 This one sets the stage for the next.
Romans 6:23
Romans 10:9
and the ever famous
John 3:16
and John 14:6

This one I will quote;
Titus 3
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is what Christianity is about according to the bible.

[charleyc]

So the nasty arabs bomb your twin towers, and a whole nation, under the banner of a Jesus chosen (in his PUBLIC personal view, of course) president, goes and bombs them to smitherens for years?
Is there no RELIGIOUS conscience to scream out loud, and move the faithful christians which meditate on the bible to protest on the streets?

The war in Iraq has spurned many people to all sorts of thoughts and beliefs about it being right or wrong. I worked with a couple sisters from Baghdad, the one in my department was brought out months before the war by the company I worked at because of her sisters employment and good standing there. These sisters parents were stuck there because their father did not have the appropriate papers and their mother, who did, wouldn't leave her husband. Prior to the war, I got to hear them talk about living under Saddam's reign. The fear that man created in these people was beyond anything I had ever seen. During the Desert Storm war in the '90's the girl in my department told how Baghdad was pretty much evacuated to surrounding towns until the war was over. However, this time, Saddam placed troops around the city and threatened to shoot anyone leaving in an attempt to create a human shield, their father was killed because their house was too close to a military facility that go bombed. These facilities (AAA turrets and such) were placed in places such as schools and residential areas in an effort to deter bombing. Most likely, it was a coalition bomb that killed these girls innocent father. They very much mourned their fathers death, but the girl in my department cried and clapped in rejoice as they pulled down that statue of Saddam. She was very glad to see Saddam gone from power. This was not something I saw or heard on TV, this came from talking wth these girls who regularly throughout the war communicated with their mother via satellite phone. At this point, I don't really care what I hear about it on TV, I honestly believe getting that kind of man out of his tyrannical reign was a good thing. Wars are horrible things, whether or not the US needed to play a role here is not for me to judge with the limits of my knowledge. But before anyone gets too sure that this was an atrocity, remember that nearly every country on the planet is as it is because of wars. This isn't the first and it wont be the last.

[jujubee]

Again, most of the posts have been religion from a biblical perspective. It's ignorant to think that other cultures do not have beneficial ways of thinking. For examples, Buddhist philosophy also views treating all living creations with respect. When people subscribe so wholeheartedly to a dogma, there is inherit danger in this level of extremism.

There's some schools of thought which believes Jesus's 14 years in the wilderness as a time when he came into contact with Buddhist philosophy. The middle east, in particular Jerusalem was a crossroads of various cultures along the silk route during that century. Whether or not you agree, there are alot of similarities.

I have read and seen alot of of discussion about Darwins theory. Some of it makes alot of sense. But it falls apart when you go to the very begining.

Scientists have almost come close to creating RNA in their laboratories with electricity and 'soups' of minerals and elements. If you want to ignore the scientific discovery, turn off your computer and cell phone.

Some may even go so far as to dispute that dinosaurs never existed.

I trust him, that implies there is a definite something outside our understanding, that communicates without waves or particles ...

I experienced the same thing whem the girl I lived with was killed in a car accident. I clutched my head in pain when this happened. I don't dispute this. Beyond my understanding? Yes. God? Don't know.

So the nasty arabs bomb your twin towers,

One shouldn't confuse Muslims with Islam. And Islam with extremists. Extremism is the by-product of censoring speech and thought. If we are afraid to discuss something openly here such as religious views and taglines, then you fall into a similar trap.

the New testament was penned by men that lived during and immediately following the very advent of Christianity.

Actually, the modern new testament has been rewritten constantly and retranslated over the past two millenia. Since then, scientists have recently rediscovered the lost gnostic gospel of Judas within the last couple of years (which was censored and banned by the Roman Catholic church during the first millenia.) I recall there is over a 50 acknowledged gospels which have been banned by the Catholic church which has been lost to history over the past two thousand years. Recent? According to the archaeological record, the old testament (and locations) date back to 3000+ BC with radiocarbon dating. That history was also often recorded with rote memory and loosely interpreted from person to person prior to mass education and papyrus.

whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

I ask - what is important - Jesus Christ the rock star or Jesus Christ and his message? You worship 'him', but fail to see the message. 'He', the physcial being is completely unimportant and oftenly misinterpreted. The 'miracles' and 'embodiment' are superstition and speculation taught to a mass audience of illiterate people and farmers (most people couldn't read) - this was the masses 'television' back in the day and stories became widely exaggerated in order to gain the church finances (lest we forget how powerful/influential the church had become.) If Jesus was god, then we all contain parts of god as we are god's creation (very similar to gnostic views.) A lot of people cannot unfortunately see past Jesus's messages which do contain moral values of coexisting with one another. This brings up being spiritual versus religion.

[DaForce]

Very well said!!

Particularly the Scientist part and your last paragraph.

Amen to that

Pun totally intended

[ene.xis]

The war in Iraq has spurned many people to all sorts of thoughts and beliefs about it being right or wrong. I worked with a couple sisters from Baghdad, the one in my department was brought out months before the war by the company I worked at because of her sisters employment and good standing there. These sisters parents were stuck there because their father did not have the appropriate papers and their mother, who did, wouldn't leave her husband. Prior to the war, I got to hear them talk about living under Saddam's reign. The fear that man created in these people was beyond anything I had ever seen.

Charley are they happy now?Do u see happy people strolling down the street s o f bagdad?

ok...
i must say i share juju s point of view, though in some ways i tend to understand completely CharleyC s points...And i think that he is right about the requets made to ipraiseg change his sig... it was exagerated...but in a Daforce s prespective tottaly understandable...

that s how i try to live my life.... i always try to see the other side s point of view, cause wether we like it or not there is a whole world of different opinions to ours, and all of them logicall and understandable.

i ve had a religious teatching as a child here in the old continent in a small country where u see a lot of what some call faith and i ve problems deading and understanding physicall sacrifices in chatolic religion that some times seems terrificly close to paghanism or to close to the video juju shared in the begining of the thread...(close i said!not the same)
and it scares me when we look back and node my head when reading lele s point s there...

It gives me the creeps when we dig into religious doctrines... i tend not to know exactly where i stand because i m no atheist i share some principles wich are in my point of view spread around every religion...

[studioDIM]

You see, literal interpretation has pitfalls.
Let me put it to you in a slightly different, more direct way.
Where from do you see in the NEW testament that jesus authorised the use of violence?
Did he ever say to his followers, or the jews (and others, well said Juju) around him to rebel from the Roman oppressor?
Did he say pay them no taxes, heed not their laws?
He complemented the old ones, and coined a different approach entirely from the old testament.
Complete, utter, unquenchable want for peace and concord.
In what, substantially, is that different to having death penalty, or going to war?
Or do you not see it?
Has there always to be a moral justification for exceptions which are doing some good to someone?
"that whom uses different means of judgement on others than those he uses on himself is an hypocrite."
Jesus again.
If life is sacred, ALL life is sacred.
If a god does indeed exist, he created the lot of us, not only some white caucasian male residing in the US, some hard core jew in israel, some vengeful extremist in saudi arabia, or some opus dei big shot in Rome.
Hence, i'd say, we'd live in a LOT better a world if instead of nitpicking our own scriptures to bareness and aridity we opened up to the overlying teological questions.
Why are we here, how should we live with each other, what common goals we ought to share. US ALL.
I see no moderate religion in the world as preaching anything else than sharing, peace and common growth, material and spiritual.
The rest, in my eyes, is preposterous and borderline with the facetious.

Lele

[mmikee]

Scientists have almost come close to creating RNA in their laboratories with electricity and 'soups' of minerals and elements. If you want to ignore the scientific discovery, turn off your computer and cell phone.

Ah yes, but where did the "soups and electricity" come from ? I love scientific descovery. But the current evolution theory still falls apart
when asked this question. As i have said, I dont pretend to know how
it all happened, but the theory of evolution as is currently stated does
not make sense when looked at as a whole.

[beestee]

Since Bible quotes are being freely used in this discussion now...

1 John 5:19 - "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

Jeremiah 10:23 - "...to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

2 Timothy 3:1-4 - "In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money,...not open to any agreement,...puffed up with pride."

The problems facing mankind today connot be lastingly solved by just one nation, they require complete international cooperation. But, selfish interests prevent that and also seriously hinder any real cooperation among the various organizations within nations.

Matthew 26:52 - "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Jesus said this to one of his apostles at a time when governmental authority was being used unjustly against the Son of God himself. For what more worthy cause could a person have fought, if that were the right thing to do?

[studioDIM]

bestee, thankyou.

Lele

[instinct]

"In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here."

Watcha think ? Did he mean waiting for 1.5 ? :P

Sorry, couldnt resist

Thorsten

[beestee]

Maybe critical times for the guys at chaos...

[studioDIM]

Lmao, REPENT VLADO!!!!

[jujubee]

LOL. 1.5!

Ah yes, but where did the "soups and electricity" come from ?

The problem is that many feel they need an explanation to the origin. And if you think a god created quarks and gluons (which could very well be), you are just guessing at best. Simply put, none of us know.

Personally, I choose to believe in science and know there are many things we have yet to understand. I'll take science over superstition any day. One thing I have learned is not to trust in other people's opinions or beliefs.

If we all followed the Christian church strictly, the Sun would still revolve around the earth and we wouldn't be using computers right now. Colombus wouldn't have 'discovered' the 'new' world. Etc. Someone has to 'break the law.' And if you don't like law-breakers, you can always go join a bunch of hipocritical terrorists who employ modern day technologies (guns and computers come to mind) in order to go back to the stone age.