Change Orders - To Use Them or Not to?

[jujubee]

I'm flexible with my work to a degree. If some changes get out of hand, then I usually inform the client of my contract and will bill them for it.

However, some clients want to use your service so that they can actually see the results of changes, and don't necessarily want to be billed for it. As a result, I usually give most of my clients one or two rounds of changes, especially if it is simple.

So where do the rest of stand in regards to sending a client a change order. Do you do it - or only some of time? Is it just me or is it a balancing act?

The problem with our work is often it is not viewed as a necessity, but rather a luxury. It's a lot different than needing electrical work, plumbing, painting, repairing a car, visiting a doctor, etc...

[percydaman]

well since Im an employee and not a business owner, I say 'always bill em for changes that go beyond the contract'. I'd hate to admit it, but I'm sure I'd say a little differently if i was a business owner though.

[Morbid Angel]

Changes should be included in the original quote as a % which is hidden to client. Typically the changes is a normal part of the process so long as it does not get out of hand. I am like you in this manner as well. If the changes are easy I will do them without extra charge (note the above). It will improve the relationships and possibly create a future work opportunities. But if the client is difficult and wants a lot and not pay for it, would you really want to work with them in the future? Perhaps its enough to tell them off.

[simmsimaging]

In the retouching end of the business the concept of "changes" can be so flexible that it becomes meaningless.

I find it risky and often futile trying to charge by "rounds of changes". What is a "round"? You might have an idea, but if it's not locked in up front then clients always push. We end up, on average, doing 30-50% more work than quoted for on a given job. The biggest recent one went from 160 hours (that we quoted for) to over 400 before I stopped counting. That was all "changes".

I run by the'pay as you play' rule as much as possible these days. I no longer quote flat rates for jobs - just a block of time. If clients run over that time it's billable. We don't always charge for it, and almost never for all of it, but it's the only way to keep it even remotely manageable.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has a better solution though
b

[Morne]

Changes should be included in the original quote as a % which is hidden to client. Typically the changes is a normal part of the process so long as it does not get out of hand. I am like you in this manner as well. If the changes are easy I will do them without extra charge (note the above). It will improve the relationships and possibly create a future work opportunities. But if the client is difficult and wants a lot and not pay for it, would you really want to work with them in the future? Perhaps its enough to tell them off.

I agree with this one. One of my clients actually told me they prefer it this way.
(this new look forum sucks by the way in the sense that I can't easily see where the quote ends and where the reply starts when scanning through)

[jujubee]

I'm thinking of changing my policies and wondering if any of you guys would agree.

I have a client that keeps on changing things. Of course, I've been of the opinion that if it's something minor, then I'll go ahead and just do it. But this last client keeps on changing "little" things and doesn't respond for half a day - prolonging this project indefinitely. Not only that, but I also gave her a different perspective for free. But now she's blown way past my two rounds of changes.

I'm thinking of just implementing a blank policy from now on:
1. We'll create the artwork based on the plans provided, and all plans are assumed to be final.
2. A preview will be sent over for approval on structure.
3. Once the first approval is made and all errors corrected, previews for approval will be sent over including lighting and texturing.
2. If there are any errors on our behalf, we will correct them free of charge.
3. If there are any changes that aren't considered errors, we will estimate as to how long we think something will take and will send the estimate before proceeding.

Some of the larger 3D firms and long-time professionals handle their policies this way.

The problem is that clients whom are unfamiliar with the 3D process often think that some of these changes are easy (such as swapping out all of the trees in this one scene.) They don't realize something "simple" such as that can take over an additional hour - by the time you reply to their emails, obtain the models/make changes, test the scene - then send it over again for confirmation, then you have to wait for a reply. So basically, they've just wasted another day by causing more work.

There's a saying, "if you give an inch, people will take a mile." I don't think that this is not being accommodating, but rather being professional about charging for one's own time.

So that's my revised question now to you guys, is it even worth being flexible or do you think you're doing yourself (and others) more harm by "trying to make them happy"?

Morbid had written:

Changes should be included in the original quote as a % which is hidden to client. Typically the changes is a normal part of the process so long as it does not get out of hand. I am like you in this manner as well. If the changes are easy I will do them without extra charge (note the above). It will improve the relationships and possibly create a future work opportunities. But if the client is difficult and wants a lot and not pay for it, would you really want to work with them in the future? Perhaps its enough to tell them off.

I agree that this is how it should work, but in this economy sometimes you just need to take on smaller jobs - even if they are not the best clients with the deepest pockets. If I included change rates as a % within my initial estimate, then I think I would definitely lose jobs as the price would become much higher. Would I really want to work with someone like in this future? Probably not, but some times you just need to pay your bills.

[dlparisi]

I think it's worth being a little flexible and having language in my contracts spelling out pretty much exactly what you listed. I look at it this way, when I bid a job I make an estimate of how many hours it will take to get it done and also include, as I'm sure you do, time for revisions. Once I get the job though it's never exactly the same number of hours that I estimate, sometimes I'm quick and sometimes the projects drag on and on and on). So on some I win and some I lose. On projects like yours where little changes or revisions can take days or more to fix, I usually just explain to them what I've changed for free up to this point (and I'm very explicit: 2 hours redoing the balconies, 1 hour on the revised corner, 2 hours re-rendering, 1 hour redoing photoshop composite, etc.) but also give a dollar cost to these free changes and they usually understand and get that the changes add up. I'll then give an estimate for the requested changes and it's usually approved without much fuss - the important thing for me was to not try and make up some of the earlier changes in the estimate for this one. Of course you'll get clients that try to take a mile, but most don't understand that the little changes (change the tree) can impact the entire image(s). IMO clients are not dumb, they know when they are being unreasonable although they may not say it. Calling them on it works most of the time.

[jujubee]

@dlparisi - the link in your signature is dead btw.

I guess my question than is "how to phrase things" so that it doesn't tick off your clients. I'm just not too good at knowing how to talk with clients - always comes out wrong. Do you do it by phone or email?

So are you constantly writing down and listing how much time you spend on each extra item then?

And no - I never make up for the extra time I said I was going to do for free. That's kinda shady.

[glorybound]

I don't commence until I get the final plans. I model the building and send some images of the model. Once they check off on the model I create the environment and then I send that off to be approved. After the model and environment is approved I create the textures and materials, light the scene, and render.

I go step-by-step. If I started modeling as soon as I got the plans I would rework way to much. When I ask if these are the latest plans I usually get a no so I don't start until I get a yes. I guess I operate more as a service.

Have you ever read this article?

http://www.asai.org/ArchitectsandIllustrators

[dlparisi]

sig is fixed now - thanks (was it broken in vbulletin update?)

I don't keep track of it as I go although I probably should. I usually just go back to emails both sent and received to figure out what I was asked to change and what I actually sent and figure out how many hours those changes took. I almost always do it by email so I can clearly itemize past and future changes which I'm rather poor at doing over the phone.

I wasn't suggesting you do try to make up time for prior changes (I think that just came out wrong), just that for myself these emails always go out as a last resort when I need to tell the client I''m done doing stuff for free. For me to actually take the time to write the email it's usually past the point where I was comfortable doing it for free (and am probably pissed off), so I need to just (in my head) forget about that and just tell them what the latest changes will be. More psychological for me to get over it rather than actually about dollars and cents.

Now, how do we get those clients to pay on time?

[glyph]

I also let it be known that if they ask for something that requires "extra fast turnaround" they pay more

- you know the deadline is all agreed but at the last minute they want x,y z changes and it still has to hit the deadline..
then they get a "rush fee" of an extra 20-50% on the amends

I think in the long run it focusses their attention and makes them respect you more

lawyers charge by the hour, we are also professionals...

[dellis]

I just found a site last night that had a pretty good write up about this kind of thing...i bookmarked it at home though. I'll try and post back tonight!

[jujubee]

I just posted my own updated article on my thoughts moving forward including a recent example of a client being unreasonable:

http://www.lunarlog.com/2010/02/the-...-of-contracts/

[dellis]

Good read....thanks for the time and effort!

[Alan Iglesias]

After agreeing on a Design Spec and Storyboard, I usually write 2 iterations into the contract. Anything beyond that would be considered out of scope and billed appropriately.

-Alan