Client Rant

[glorybound]

Okay, I am sporting a new contract that is pretty specific. I have a new client, working under the new contract, and they still don't get it. My main goals of the contract are, for one is to get paid, and two is to streamline the process. I have been working on an interior, with an interior designer for weeks, and I was ready to hit the 'done' button. All of a sudden, I get a laundry list of changes, because she finally shared it with her client. I nailed everything with the interior designer, however, it's obvious the interior designer and her client didn't have a meeting of their minds.

Yesterday, I had an hour long conversation with a potential client. Again, its an interior designer working for a homeowner. I think I learned more from that one transparent conversation than I have anywhere. She basically wanted me to do what she can't, which is showing her clients her ideas. And, what if the homeowner doesn't like your ideas, I said? Unless you pay me per hour, the job would be considered complete, whether she liked your ideas or not. She said that she had never thought of it like that. My client rant fits into that same scenario. Her client didn't like her design, so I am expected to make the changes. How can anyone consider that to be right? Or, am I missing something. They can't think that we are on the hook until they are happy, can they?

Okay, rant over.

[glorybound]

If anyone has some legal verbiage about the revision process, and wouldn't mind sharing, that would be awesome.

Good stuff here: http://www.creativebloq.com/career/s...sions-81412587

[flino2004]

I passed for that path before and I always say that the renderings are the graphic representation of the design, It's not WIP or a client's design tool...So, I started with some kind of introduction stressing that...Renderings are finals and all the modifications that that involves modelling would be charged, I usually don't charge if it's only tweaking materials.

[glorybound]

I think also, for next time, I'll stress parts of the contract. I am sure that they don't even read it. In the initial contact I'll reiterate the revision rounds, so it is perfectly clear.

[particlerealities]

We always phrase our contract to basically state that once I am given authorization to proceed, I am moving forward based on the information I have been provided up to that point. The client is allowed minor revisions to tweak colors and lighting, but not the design. If the tweaks become excessive, we will request additional money based on hours spent making said revisions. Any revisions to the design are billed at an hourly rate. Your designer surely doesn't intend to create a whole new set of material/mood boards if his/her client changes their mind about the design - he/she shouldn't expect you to eat your time either. If they do, you don't want that client anyway. Or you need to charge extra from the start to cover your bases with that particular client.

[FSGFX]

i would go the milestone route like you have it in the game branche... just specify what will be delivered in the first days/weeks...
show that to the client and go for the next milestone... you get paid per milestone... milestones are also planed into the future... month or even years ahead...

[glorybound]

That sounds good to me. Basically, what my contract says, but I need to spell it out.

We always phrase our contract to basically state that once I am given authorization to proceed, I am moving forward based on the information I have been provided up to that point. The client is allowed minor revisions to tweak colors and lighting, but not the design. If the tweaks become excessive, we will request additional money based on hours spent making said revisions. Any revisions to the design are billed at an hourly rate. Your designer surely doesn't intend to create a whole new set of material/mood boards if his/her client changes their mind about the design - he/she shouldn't expect you to eat your time either. If they do, you don't want that client anyway. Or you need to charge extra from the start to cover your bases with that particular client.

[glorybound]

My projects usually only last a week, so that might be hard to do.

i would go the milestone route like you have it in the game branche... just specify what will be delivered in the first days/weeks...
show that to the client and go for the next milestone... you get paid per milestone... milestones are also planed into the future... month or even years ahead...

[glorybound]

Here, is my contract. Feel free to use or comment. Basically, I copied things I liked from around the web.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/...a-dd428b704bb0

[joconnell]

I heard a great suggestion along the lines of this for vfx a while back. One of our biggest problems like yours, is trying to actually visualise what the client wants and it's the gap in language and imagination that causes shots to get redone over and over at a large loss. What someone suggested is that a director should hire a vfx company during the pre production phase, when there's no shoot schedule or release date and identify each of the elements of their film that they need to come up with a look for. They'll identify the most iconic shot in each sequence and then spend a bit of time doing vfx look development so the director can come up with a piece of finished work which is exactly what they're thinking of for each part of the film. Armed with this, they can then go out to a load of vfx studios and get them to bid on all of the shots for each sequence of the film, armed with a signed off look for each of the effects and how the development vfx studio came up with the look, so the vfx vendor doesn't have any time wasted.

Seems like the interior designers should spend a little bit of time in something like a sketchup look development phase with their client first, doing simple layouts and finishes where it's quick and interactive, but then after this exploratory section is finished, you can continue through to finished renders as a realistic proof of concept.

[AlexP]

Seems like the interior designers should spend a little bit of time in something like a sketchup look development phase with their client first, doing simple layouts and finishes where it's quick and interactive, but then after this exploratory section is finished, you can continue through to finished renders as a realistic proof of concept.

Doesnt help as much as it should to be honest.
In my experience, this is the difference between good designers and not so good designers.
The good ones, know exactly what they want from the off and have a clear concept, and there are rarely any changes to the visuals other than general improvement to the visuals.
The bad ones, never have a clear vision in the first place, but *think* they do, and so end up having to use the visuals to aid their design development leading to millions of revisions.

The best way to approach this, ime, is to clearly define at the start of the project whether this is a developmental exercise or not and price accordingly. This way you can also set sensible timescales and everyone is on the same page.

[glorybound]

At the least, they should have a color board for the client with some pencil sketches. I do ask my clients to fill out a questionnaire, which does help, however, it depends on who fills it out. This job the designer, who I was working with, wanted old and rustic. Apparently, the owner wanted whimsical and cheerful. There was such a gap in the mood. The owner wants drywall with an accent wall and the designer wanted wood paneling. The designer wanted barn doors and the owner wants a glass door... Really, night and day. I sucked it up, put their email into a list, and emailed it, saying that this would be the last round of revisions. Instead of jumping on the changes, now they need to take their time to make sure that they are on the same page. I sincerely think most don't understand the process and it is up to us to explain it. On this project the owner signed the contract and paid the deposit, however, I doubt the designer ever saw the contract, so she probably thought I was paid to help her design a space.

I heard a great suggestion along the lines of this for vfx a while back. One of our biggest problems like yours, is trying to actually visualise what the client wants and it's the gap in language and imagination that causes shots to get redone over and over at a large loss. What someone suggested is that a director should hire a vfx company during the pre production phase, when there's no shoot schedule or release date and identify each of the elements of their film that they need to come up with a look for. They'll identify the most iconic shot in each sequence and then spend a bit of time doing vfx look development so the director can come up with a piece of finished work which is exactly what they're thinking of for each part of the film. Armed with this, they can then go out to a load of vfx studios and get them to bid on all of the shots for each sequence of the film, armed with a signed off look for each of the effects and how the development vfx studio came up with the look, so the vfx vendor doesn't have any time wasted.

Seems like the interior designers should spend a little bit of time in something like a sketchup look development phase with their client first, doing simple layouts and finishes where it's quick and interactive, but then after this exploratory section is finished, you can continue through to finished renders as a realistic proof of concept.

[glorybound]

My first job, in the early 90's, was to translate the designers idea into a visual, for the owner to approve. The company designed and built hotels, and the company owner was in New York and we were in Chicago. At the time all the drawings were on paper and consisted of plans and elevations. I used AutoCAD and Accurender to illustrate. We would work back and forth until the owner was happy. I didn't care how long it took, I was paid for a 40 hour work week. I think, maybe, some clients think that they own me for the duration of the project schedule. That might make sense, however their is a end date and most blow right past it. I would love to have the luxury of a long timeline, however they usually come to me with something they need right now! So, a lot of the time things get rushed.

[Jason Stewart]

Sounds a lot like the Designer didn't do their job and now you are eating it. How far along in the process could they possibly be if the designer and owner are thinking so differently?

Its tough situation to be in, we run into it a lot but my day job is designing homes and that is all done hourly. I have realized that you have to be fair but firm, you don't want to come off angry but you have to let them know that what they are asking is outside the original scope of work. If you let them make you eat it once they will try to do it over and over, its easier to draw that line the first time rather than let them keep expecting more and more until you lose your mind.

All the Interior Designers I know work in a way where everything is a work in progress until the client has no more money. Makes it difficult to work with them.

[glorybound]

Sounds a lot like the Designer didn't do their job and now you are eating it. How far along in the process could they possibly be if the designer and owner are thinking so differently? Its tough situation to be in, we run into it a lot but my day job is designing homes and that is all done hourly. I have realized that you have to be fair but firm, you don't want to come off angry but you have to let them know that what they are asking is outside the original scope of work. If you let them make you eat it once they will try to do it over and over, its easier to draw that line the first time rather than let them keep expecting more and more until you lose your mind. All the Interior Designers I know work in a way where everything is a work in progress until the client has no more money. Makes it difficult to work with them.

our conversation went well. I asked her to meet with her client and develop a list, because the next revision will be the last. However, I did tell her that I was pretty flexible when it comes to revisions. Basically, I let her know that if I do anything more than one more revision, it would be out of kindness and understanding that they want a good image to market. I haven't heard back and it's been a few days. Hopefully, when she comes back, she has her ducks in a row.