What formats are people using?

[Macker]

I will be the first to admit I don't truly understand the latest industry fascination with various colour profiles/workflows, and the differences between them. AcesCG? OCIO? Rec709? Log? HLG? Raw?

All I know is that when I save out of VRay and open it in photoshop it is like being transported back in time to the pre-gamma-2.2 times, with ludicrously dark shadows/high contrast - even though it doesn't look like that in the frame buffer. I know you can tick "save in image" for the display correction - but there must be a reason why this isn't the default, right? I must be missing something?

I then begin to get concerned that the file format we traditionally used (16bit .tif) might not be capable of capturing all of this dynamic range, so my question is what formats are people using for their Arch Viz CGI's these days? And do you have to perform corrections in photoshop to get them to display correctly (I'm not talking about post production, I mean just getting a 1:1 replica of the frame buffer)?

What is the "new standard" that people are working to/with? Because my target audience hasn't changed, nor has the formats they are using.

Any help much appreciated.

[Pixelcon]

I use jpg And it comes into photoshop looking "correct"

[Vizioen]

I save as vrimg, do all the color corrections using cryptomatte masks in VFB, then I copy paste from VFB into photoshop. It happens that the colors are not 100% identical to that of the VFB, it always changes a tiny bit, but not too much for me to overhaul my workflow. Then finishing touches in PS and export to JPG, unless the client wants it differently.

[Macker]

Yeah, we don't do any of our corrections in VFB.

I don't really want to depart from our previous workflow which allowed me to save the image from the VFB, open it in photoshop and it look identical.

However the colour management/defaults have been forced upon us (and I understand the logic/reasoning behind it, I think) and I want to make sure we are working in a manner that is correct, but this does feel like a lot of unnecessary barriers have been thrown up. Surely all of the defaults should allow a 1:1 translation between the VFB and photoshop?

That's all I want to get to - a point where the image saved out of the VFB matches what is displayed in photoshop.

Is there a colour lookup table that we should be using? Or perhaps some kind of conversion (I see in photoshop under Edit menu there is a "Convert to OpenColorIO" which I have had a play around with, and it gets us CLOSE to what the VFB is displaying, but not identical.

The VFB default is an ACES 1.0 SDR-video transform, but I can't find this profile anywhere else, certainly not in any of the conversions in photoshop and doesn't appear to be available on the actual OCIO website. Would be really good if someone from chaosgroup could weigh in on this.

[Pixelcon]

Which mode are you using for display correction in the VFB?
edit: And which format are you saving out as?

[Macker]

I use jpg And it comes into photoshop looking "correct"

Even jpg doesn't save correctly.

[Macker]

Which mode are you using for display correction in the VFB?
edit: And which format are you saving out as?

Traditionally we'd save as .tif, however we aren't wedded to that as a format. Quite happy to move to .exr or any other format that is supported by photoshop.



I'm using the default display settings in VRay 7.

[Pixelcon]

Are you using a calibrated monitor?

[Macker]

Not especially - just a Wacom monitor and a Dell laptop monitor.

[Vizioen]

I use the 'legacy' gamma workflow, I can't be bothered with anything else, Aces just takes too long to setup and there's no money or time for this workflow, for imho not such a big impact.

- So Color Management Settings in 3dsMax are set to Gamma Workflow with Display Gamma set to 2.2
- VFB (Display Correction in the layer panel) is set to sRGB
- Photoshop Color Settings > RGB set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1

This works for me and ensures I have an almost identical image in Photoshop. And I'll admit as well,... I have no clue what I'm doing.

Granted I use copy paste from the VFB, so there might be a difference. I just tested a bit:

PNG/TGA/TIF/JPG when saved from VFB, all produce nearly identical images in Photoshop, but are very slightly less contrasty and a tiny bit more washed out than the VFB (but not extremely just a little bit).

But copy paste from VFB, looks more like the VFB (for some weird reason), I took a screenshot of my VFB and overlayed it on top of the copy paste and no visible difference in contrast/brightness/colors.

Edit: also worth noting is my Windows Colour Management, is set to the system default of sRGB IEC61966-2.1, I have not calibrated anything or messed around with profiles. I never had good luck with any of those settings.

[Pixelcon]

That slight change is likely the difference between gamma 2.2 and sRGB.
I agree the whole topic is stupidly complicated.

(I also use the legacy Gamma Worflow. I also have my calibration .icc file loaded into the VFB for correction.)

[hermit.crab]

That's all I want to get to - a point where the image saved out of the VFB matches what is displayed in photoshop.

When using OCIO it matters what file format you save in. Since your goal is to get an identical to the VFB image to Photoshop do the following:

1. For 8-bit images (.jpg, .png). you need to bake the OCIO display correction in the image (using the OCIO Display correction Layer's "Save in Image") option. Also, make sure the 3ds Max output defaults (in the color management settings) are set to "no conversion". Afterward, you preview it regularly (sRGB/ Gamma 2.2 - which most image applications default to).

2. For raw image formats (.exr, .vrimg), you need to apply an identical Display Correction profile in Photoshop. Those image formats are saved raw, so their display depends on the post-processing software to be displayed correctly.

Yes, the "Convert to OpenColorIO" is the way to go: Choose a .ocio config (preferably the one you used in the VFB); set the space to ACEScg (the one you supported by V-Ray) and make sure the input image color space is set to "raw" or "embedded color space".

The VFB default is an ACES 1.0 SDR-video transform, but I can't find this profile anywhere else, certainly not in any of the conversions in photoshop. Would be really good if someone from chaosgroup could weigh in on this.

The ACES 1.0 SDR-Video is not a color space, but a view transform - meaning it is a translator between the rendered color space and the monitor color profile. I also don't see any options (in PS) to control it, although, it does seem to be active - you can prove this by using PS's neat "Duplicate to Profile" option, which lets you duplicate the ACES look to another color space.


Otherwise, we are working on a Knowledge Base article about this topic. It will be out soon.

EDIT: A few posts arrived before I could post. Comments:

Yes, when saving 8-bit images there might be a slight difference because of the Gamma 2.2 and sRGB also slight differences.

And yes, reverting to the legacy Gamma Workflow is always an option.

[luckett_jason@hotmail.com]

Gamma workflow, the headache setting up ACEScg just isn't worthwhile, as you've said the images look dreadul in the VFB and you have problems saving them out in different formats.

Having to rename all the bitmaps with suffixes as well just isn't practical, also the same with converting to .tx files.

I feel the workflow will be there in a couple of years but as it stands unless you are working in a very large studio or VFX house then this is just another layer of problems.

If you use Vantage as your animation tool you'll run into problems here as well, just not worth the hassle for very marginal improvements.

It feels like Vray is catering to the big film studios with this integration, completely understandable from them but for most ArchViz guys the integration is overkill.

I feel this has similarities to the Linear Workflow shennanigans a few years back, saving massive .exr files for very little imporvement (for me).

Getting the images looking great in the VFB is the key, not some magic bullet of this type.

I could be wrong on all this, I'm sure there are plenty of wizzos on here who could say otherwise.

Jason

[piotrus3333]

Macker

CGI is just catching up with displays and cameras capable of displaying and recording wider gamuts. if you think about it most iphones display more colours than VRay rendering in sRGB mode can understand.

save in image off for ocio and srgb display transform are defaults because default output from VRay is vrimg or exr.

16bit tif is perfectly fine. use traditional highlight burn or filmic to compress hdr colour data, display with gamma 2.2 (3ds max legacy gamma colour management) or ICC display profile in VFB if you use one. 1:1 in photoshop vs VFB.

[Vizioen]

When using OCIO it matters what file format you save in. Since your goal is to get an identical to the VFB image to Photoshop do the following:

1. For 8-bit images (.jpg, .png). you need to bake the OCIO display correction in the image (using the OCIO Display correction Layer's "Save in Image") option. Also, make sure the 3ds Max output defaults (in the color management settings) are set to "no conversion". Afterward, you preview it regularly (sRGB/ Gamma 2.2 - which most image applications default to).

2. For raw image formats (.exr, .vrimg), you need to apply an identical Display Correction profile in Photoshop. Those image formats are saved raw, so their display depends on the post-processing software to be displayed correctly.

Yes, the "Convert to OpenColorIO" is the way to go: Choose a .ocio config (preferably the one you used in the VFB); set the space to ACEScg (the one you supported by V-Ray) and make sure the input image color space is set to "raw" or "embedded color space".



The ACES 1.0 SDR-Video is not a color space, but a view transform - meaning it is a translator between the rendered color space and the monitor color profile. I also don't see any options (in PS) to control it, although, it does seem to be active - you can prove this by using PS's neat "Duplicate to Profile" option, which lets you duplicate the ACES look to another color space.


Otherwise, we are working on a Knowledge Base article about this topic. It will be out soon.

EDIT: A few posts arrived before I could post. Comments:

Yes, when saving 8-bit images there might be a slight difference because of the Gamma 2.2 and sRGB also slight differences.

And yes, reverting to the legacy Gamma Workflow is always an option.

What happens differently, between copy and paste from VFB to photoshop and saving to JPG/PNG/TIFF/TGA and loading that in Photoshop?