V-Ray pricing / update policy?

[thorstengaetz]

Hi,

before my studies I was employed at a 3d company and used vray extensively. Now I am studying design but they don't have vray there, and i needed 3dsmax license for my laptop anyways.

First I ordered the Autodesk Education Suite for 60€, which includes 3dsmax, maya, xsi, mudbox, motionbuilder, and sketchbook pro. For the record, this package is worth 15,000€ - you read that right: software worth 15 thousand € for 60€ - only for non-commercial use, of course.

So then, I asked my retailer about the vray cost. It's currently priced at 180€ for the educational version. Now I (and countless others) can't afford that as a student, which means I have to learn mentalray, which in the long run, would lose you a paying customer. Not to mention vray RT does not run with the demo, inspite of the fact that it is the best way to quickly learn how vray works.

Now i have two questions: If I do buy vray, do I get future updates for free? Or how is that handled?

Second, I know it's not economic to answer this truthfully, but do you plan to lower educational licenses to an acceptable level ... of course this level is open to debate, but just compare it to Autodesk - it includes 3dsmax which includes mentalray (your direct competition), and if you do think economically, this will lose you customers in the long run. It's the students of today who will (or will not) buy your packages tomorrow. Lastly, i wanted to add that in my opinion, the commercial licenses are absolutely reasonably priced.

I would gladly buy vray if its about in the 50€ range, with all features enabled and maybe even up to 100€ with RT working. I know it is worth much more, but this would count as an future investment for your company.

Regards
Thorsten

[vlado]

All point updates and service packs to V-Ray 1.5 will be free; there will be an upgrade fee for the next major version of V-Ray (V-Ray 2.0).

Best regards,
Vlado

[renderslaveuk]

vray 2.0

when we should expect Vray 2.0??

[Da_elf]

2020 hehe kidding

[thorstengaetz]

so..

I just read that mental ray will release its 3.8 version in 2-3 months, featuring its iray realtime gpu-based rendering, taking one step beyond vray RT. Since mr 3.8 will ship with the next max version, and there seems to be no change in policy from chaosgroup, you just lost a customer (and i think, more will follow).

Goodbye my beloved vray

[trick]

I just read that mental ray will release its 3.8 version in 2-3 months, featuring its iray realtime gpu-based rendering, taking one step beyond vray RT. Since mr 3.8 will ship with the next max version, and there seems to be no change in policy from chaosgroup, you just lost a customer (and i think, more will follow).

Goodbye my beloved vray

Wow, 2nd post and bye bye already !!

What policy do you mean: the one that never ever asked for an upgrade fee since it's existence !

GPU-based rendering requires specialized material libraries tied to hardware. It's a completely different story and in a certain way (quality) a step backwards. With your experience you should know that VRay is initially for completely different purposes. The key is to find a realtime system that gives exactly the same output both when realtime on the GPU and in the renderer. Both MR and VRay (CUDA) will have a big task with this, since the shaders will be prescribed by the hardware vendor, meaning this can take generations...

[thorstengaetz]

Wow, 2nd post and bye bye already !!

What policy do you mean: the one that never ever asked for an upgrade fee since it's existence !

Imho they should rather ask for upgrade fees, but allow students the possiblity to use vray at all. I would love to use vray now, but since i'm studying 3d/game design, i don't have the ~1000€ to buy vray adv+RT, which would be the best solution for quick learning. I would even pay that price later when I'll be working in the industry again, but right now I can't afford that (and not in the foreseeable future).

GPU-based rendering requires specialized material libraries tied to hardware. It's a completely different story and in a certain way (quality) a step backwards.

That's not right, check out the mental images info page (and the pdf) on iray. iray will work with the standard archviz and promaterials integrated into 3dsmax.

With your experience you should know that VRay is initially for completely different purposes. The key is to find a realtime system that gives exactly the same output both when realtime on the GPU and in the renderer. Both MR and VRay (CUDA) will have a big task with this, since the shaders will be prescribed by the hardware vendor, meaning this can take generations...

GPU's support C++ now, and its just a question of time until their processing power will be fully harnessed.

Maybe my last post was a bit dramatic, but I'm kinda upset I will not be able to use vray in the foreseeable future.

[Pixelcon]

Beware that the Iray demo's you've seen are using up to 15 gpu's to render whereas the siggraph vrayRT demo was done on a single Geforce 285.

As a student even one of these gpu's is out of your reach so forget about using iray.

[Da_elf]

thorstengaetz

you have tried the demo version right?

[thorstengaetz]

You mean the SP2 demo, which is incompatible with max 2010? No, since i don't have a max 2009 license. And even then, vray RT (even the demo) is incompatible with SP2.

You don't get my point. The price point of every product is an economical decision. Autodesk learnt their lesson and offers a package worth 15000€ for 60€ for students. The price point of Vray EDU/RT is too high, effectively driving students (a lot of which are future good-paying customers) away from the product.

While Autodesk is binding customers, Chaosgroup is ditching them. This is not about me being unable to afford vray ( oh my, what a poor guy you might think ) but about customer relation management - simple economics.

[Pixelcon]

Well I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

It IS about you not being able to afford Vray otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't think there is an owner of Vray out there that thinks Chaosgroup could have a better price structure.

Yeah cool Autodesk gives great student rates but when it comes to a commercial license, prepare to have a limb removed and then an extra finger or two every year for subscription.

When it comes to vray, I pay an extremely reasonable price and I don't pay for upgrades. How is that not good business practice?

Oh and the vray support is second to none.

Everyone wants something for free. If you want quality you have to pay for it. In the case of Vray, its pricing structure and stellar support is a rare bonus in today's world.

[thorstengaetz]

What does a good price structure for commercial users say about students being able or not to buy a license?! I don't get your point. And commercial max is just 1000€ + 600€ per year for subscription.

What would you suppose students should do?

[Pixelcon]

Let me answer you question with another question.

What as a student would you do if you thought the Autodesk PLE for 60euro was far too expensive?

There are going to be students everywhere who either (a) cant afford both the Autodesk PLE and the Vray PLE. (b) Students in your position and (c) Students who can afford both.

Unless Chaosgroup changes their pricepoint, then you need to learn to live within you means. Everyone does it at some point.

[thorstengaetz]

This is not about me needing to live within my means. This is about a stupid economic decision. I can't get why you try to get all personal on this topic, since I tried to make clear this is not about my personal finances.

Studying 3D and games isn't cheap. It costs huge fees and on top of that, requires you to buy a lot of hardware. Of course you have to manage your budget, so for example, if I had to decide between a graphics tablet and vray, I'd rather go with the tablet and learn mental ray. This is the point where chaos group loses the customers. Get it now?

Why I brought up the comparison with Autodesk: you get a lot more value for a lot less money, making the package more attractive by a factor of 1000 and thus, bind customers. And honestly, Autodesk doesn't even have to do this, since they almost have a monopoly. V-Ray does not.

Don't tell me you really want to compare 15000/60 for the PLE to 770/240 for vray (without rt)?! Still dismissing the fact that in order to get vray RT, I would have to spend ~1100€ (without edu discount, since RT doesn't work with edu version).

Your argument of the three groups being able to buy vray or not, is moot, by the way. Would it still apply if vray edu would cost 5000€? This is about finding the sweet spot. And if I look at my fellow students, it's obvious for a lot of applications that the sweet spot just isn't right, doing nothing but encourage dubious means of acquring software. Photoshop for 400€ ? 90% of the students I know can't afford that. Its an inconvenient truth, but you and I and even Chaos Group know what those people do to get the proper tools for their studies. Maybe its time to think about the pricing policy after all, earning more money in the long run, and even the short.

[Pixelcon]

If it's not about you not being able to afford it then I dont get why do you care at all.

And my argument is completely valid. A student in a western country is more likely to be in the bracket where they can afford both the Autodesk PLE and the vray PLE. Do you honestly believe that a student from say china or india or a "3rd world" economy is going to be able to afford a 60 euro autodesk PLE?

I can't imagine why you would learn 3D using Vray anyway. It's that complicated a renderer that it seems a strange choice to learn on.

Either way there isn't much more I can say. Either you forget about Vray or chaosgroup lowers the price.