Chaos Vantage and Chaos Envision

[piotrus3333]

and that is just a small sample of features Vantage as standalone app is missing. features you are used to in the DCC of your choice. now Vantage development team can use resources duplicating all that or just turn Vantage into a traditional plugins. probably just Maya/Max/C4D/Blender.

[jon_berntsen]

I find this discussion quite interesting. So as others has mentioned, what is probably happening here is that you are making Vantage obsolete by creating Envision, even before Vantage as a product matured - which from a product point of view is not very intuitive.

According to this thread, Envision is aiming for working with visualization of CAD-models. Which is basically what most people do with Vantage in one or another way anyway, or do you have data that say otherwise?
I'm sure there are people here who are waiting for Vantage to have live link capabilities from more programs, and for it to have more integrations, which would be a natural expansion of the software by time.

As joeykey said:
"I would have thought that a fairer way to approach this would be having Vantage gains all Envision's capabilities, and Envision becomes a striped down version of Vantage (and cheaper)."

I second this very strongly. Vantage seems already very capable of loading heavy files, and it also have gained a certain momentum in the general workflows around. And now you leave people in uncertainity and doubt.
It seems like the use case that Envision will be solving, is integrations with drafting programs - which IMO could be solved with adding plugins to Vantage for enabling these integrations (to avoid bloatware in Vantage).

Please don't make these two separately. The features added in Envision must at some point be added to Vantage as well, or else Vantage is dead.

Can you please elaborate a little more about Envision vs Vantage?
Sure, your competitors not finding out what your next move is, is cruical, but now in 2024 please be a little customer oriented.

[piotrus3333]

I've just opened Envision. this is nothing like Vantage.
Envision will join Enscape, Twinmotion, D5, Lumion etc and Vantage will continue towards becoming what VRay RT could never be.

[jon_berntsen]

So why Enscape then? Enscape, Envision, Vantage. All three seemingly targeting the same people. Right now, Envision looks like Project Lavina in beta.

[piotrus3333]

So why Enscape then? Enscape, Envision, Vantage. All three seemingly targeting the same people. Right now, Envision looks like Project Lavina in beta.

Enscape is a very well established product. It’s not going anywhere. Envision is just a new kid on the block: all the benefits of raytracing, ease of use of Twinmotion. Targets the same crowd but the crowd is huge, there is space for one more.

Vantage is a tech preview. tool for almost everybody (that is users with a need for fast output), sure - but this also makes it not perfect for most. with Envision being around Vantage is simply ditching unnecessary weight so it can grow it’s user base in media and entertainment space.

I obviously would love the name being changed to VRay RT but oh well (although it would create probably less confusion than Vantage and Envision now - marketing is not easy).

[jon_berntsen]

Not sure if I quite follow you. What kind of features exactly is Vantage not going to have that Envision will have, and why? Georef sky model? Two way IFC support (read/write)? Physical based materials from real vendors? I am sure all users in the "media and entertainment" group already wants these features in their use. I can't think of many things that would be only for architects and engineers. Two way communication with a drafting software, perhaps, which could be solved with Vantage plugins. Or calculations of stuff, but this is resolved in the host programs anyway. It isn't like AEC software is little kids, they are powerhouses solving these things in their own matter, which leaves us with visualization needs that this "architects and engineers" group has, that "media and entertainment" doesn't have. Again, which is what exactly?

Though you are digging in something important here, because this isn't something that customers should define. I think Chaos has trouble with product categorizing. Are they targeting architects and engineers for competing with twinmotion? Funny that all engineers I have seen doing visualizations earlier, wants their design to have "media and entertainment" style. Also, didn't they aquire Enscape for this very reason?

As a Chaos customer using their products to deliver products to my own customers, I have a strategy for what kind of software I will put effort in the next few years. It is called "investing in knowledge, efficiency, market tailored content" to differenciate and get an edge before competitors. It's fun, you should try.
So as a customer, I'm still left wondering if I should invest in Vantage or Envision, or maybe Enscape, of course in addition to Vray, and as it seems, Chaos has some real trouble with product classifying and marketing communication. Splitting an existing customer base defined on a non-existing product categorizing seems like a desperate measurement to take to gain traction, and again, for me as a customer with real life needs for my tools, this is all going in wrong direction, before Chaos themselves loud and clear define their user segments and product categories.

[piotrus3333]

Twinmotion vs VRay RT. this would be the comparison. AEC need built-in gallery of skyboxes and animated models of people walking their dogs, M&E need control over number of ray bounces to output to those led walls fast enough.

[jon_berntsen]

I understand that comparison. But for me in archviz, I actually need from both those worlds. Archviz is about M&E in increasing scale, and it is all about efficiency to keep prices competitive. So built in skyboxes, animated models and people walking their dogs on led walls.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

I'm coming from the announcement of the beta on youtube where almost all of the comments are negative. It seems there has been a push-and-pull within chaos for some time(maybe since buying enscape) regarding how to address both AEC and the vis professionals who AEC pay for their services. It now seems that Chaos is hedging both sides with vantage and envision? Ultimately it puts a sour taste in my mouth considering how thinly resources must how be spread across so many products - like if your a loyal max vray user doesn't this stuff starts to hurt, especially considering that vray is now the most expensive render engine by quite a bit?

[Luma3d]

Unfortunately it looks like Chaos is becoming the new Autodesk. More for profit versus innovation. I agree with those who think that Vantage should have just been given the features that Envision has. Would havr been a better direction. Now their are two separate apps that users have to pay for.

[piotrus3333]

I understand that comparison. But for me in archviz, I actually need from both those worlds. Archviz is about M&E in increasing scale, and it is all about efficiency to keep prices competitive. So built in skyboxes, animated models and people walking their dogs on led walls.

I guess Envision is most likely not for you then.

[piotrus3333]

I'm coming from the announcement of the beta on youtube where almost all of the comments are negative. It seems there has been a push-and-pull within chaos for some time(maybe since buying enscape) regarding how to address both AEC and the vis professionals who AEC pay for their services. It now seems that Chaos is hedging both sides with vantage and envision? Ultimately it puts a sour taste in my mouth considering how thinly resources must how be spread across so many products - like if your a loyal max vray user doesn't this stuff starts to hurt, especially considering that vray is now the most expensive render engine by quite a bit?

people seem to forget that Chaos Group and Enscape was a merger.

[wolfgang_himmelfarb]

people seem to forget that Chaos Group and Enscape was a merger.

lol, not sure how that matters at all. But I know I can always count on Marcin Piotrowiski to be the contrarian on everything no matter how asinine.