No licenses when internet connection is lost?

[Nicinus]

So what you are saying is that for Chaos online licenses you need internet connection when you install, and then every 14 days for the main computer you are using Vray on? What is the part with the renewal needing internet at least during the last 3 days? Would be great to get a truly clear answer on this.

[^Lele^]

So what you are saying is that for Chaos online licenses you need internet connection when you install, and then every 14 days for the main computer you are using Vray on? What is the part with the renewal needing internet at least during the last 3 days? Would be great to get a truly clear answer on this.

It's in the help doc Nikolay linked.

[Nicinus]

That is exactly how the Chaos License server is supposed to be used, when distributing multiple licenses across different offices and people. The Chaos license server borrows your Online licenses for offline use on your Server machine - those licenses will be available for two weeks without any conditions. The users will be able to access them via the VPN and do not need to activate the Chaos License server or borrow licenses themselves.
Our licensing is similar to the way Adobe and Autodesk operate "For both Adobe and Autodesk you need internet when you install the product, and then need to be connected within every 30 days". You can use your borrowed licenses for 14 days without internet connection. Their renewal happens automatically. However, the renewal process requires internet connection at least once during the last 3 days. The renewal is valid from the moment it happened for additional 14 days.

The help doc seems mainly to refer to if you have no internet at all and need to activate your license. And the comment above is clear as mud, where Nikolay says it works similar to Adobe and Autodesk and you can use the license for 14 days without internet. It then gets complicated. "Their renewal happens automatically", which indicates Chaos doesn't. He then says "However, the renewal process requires internet connection at least once during the last 3 days"?

Can I just get a clear yes or no. If I have Vray on a laptop and grabs it to go for lunch or sit somewhere without internet, or if I loose internet for a couple of days at the office, will my Vray 5 continue to work?

[nikolay.simeonov]

Thanks for the reply, Nikolay. However, don’t you have to borrow these licenses manually? With Adobe it is set and forget.

Or have I completely misinterpreted how licensing works, and it does automatically keep licenses locally?

If I do not borrow any licenses manually, and my internet guess out, or Chaos servers, or routing in between is interrupted, etc. Will we be able to use our licenses?

Or do we indeed have to manually Return and re-borrow licenses (which is not atomic), to ensure we always have a week or more of uninterrupted licenses?

Thanks.

The licenses need to be borrowed manually only the first time you perform the borrowing process. Afterwards, your licenses will be auto-renewed unless you manually release them. Borrowed licenses are stored locally automatically, on the machine that has borrowed them. Borrowed licenses can be accessed by all machines in the local network.
If you have not borrowed your licenses and your internet connection goes out - you will be not able to use V-Ray. If our backend servers are down, but your internet connection is OK, you should be able to use V-Ray, provided that you have installed Chaos License server version 5.0.0 or later.

Once you borrow your licenses, you do not need to do anything manually - the Chaos license server will automatically reborrow them for you.

[nikolay.simeonov]

The help doc seems mainly to refer to if you have no internet at all and need to activate your license. And the comment above is clear as mud, where Nikolay says it works similar to Adobe and Autodesk and you can use the license for 14 days without internet. It then gets complicated. "Their renewal happens automatically", which indicates Chaos doesn't. He then says "However, the renewal process requires internet connection at least once during the last 3 days"?

Can I just get a clear yes or no. If I have Vray on a laptop and grabs it to go for lunch or sit somewhere without internet, or if I loose internet for a couple of days at the office, will my Vray 5 continue to work?

The documentation describes both how to activate the Chaos License server without internet connection and how to borrow licenses IF your internet is working. The Chaos license server requires internet connection for borrowing your licenses the first time you install it then once every 12 days.

You will not be able to use V-Ray without internet, if you have not borrowed your licenses for offline use.

[Joelaff]

The licenses need to be borrowed manually only the first time you perform the borrowing process. Afterwards, your licenses will be auto-renewed unless you manually release them. Borrowed licenses are stored locally automatically, on the machine that has borrowed them. Borrowed licenses can be accessed by all machines in the local network.
If you have not borrowed your licenses and your internet connection goes out - you will be not able to use V-Ray. If our backend servers are down, but your internet connection is OK, you should be able to use V-Ray, provided that you have installed Chaos License server version 5.0.0 or later.

Once you borrow your licenses, you do not need to do anything manually - the Chaos license server will automatically reborrow them for you.

This very good news! I am not sure the documentation made this clear. Or perhaps I mis-read it.

Obviously I was in error of my understanding on the current system. I am sorry if I was overly critical. I am sure you realize the importance of this, which is why you already implemented something like what I was requesting. Thanks.

So how often does the local license server re-borrow the licenses? The important question being: What is the minimum amount of time we will ALWAYS have available (once the licenses are borrowed)? I am hoping that it gets updated daily and extended for another two weeks or whatever so we always have those two weeks.

Also with the local license server re-borrowing on a regular basis I assume this can be done even when the licensees are in use, right? To borrow manually the licenses can't be in use.

[fixeighted]

Thanks for clarifying all of this.
I do now see that the doc page has been comprehensively reworked, making it actually much clearer than it was when I had my problems a while ago.
That page was most certainly not clear and definitely (at least for me) suggested that it was not an automatic process and that we had to remember to re-borrow licenses periodically.
So hopefully now everyone can be assured that if they borrow their license once for any machine, then that will be the only time they need to do it.
Barring an EMP event of course

Joking aside, why is the 'last 3 days' thing relevant?
Wouldn't it be possible/desirable to shorten that time so that it checks daily and simply advances that 2 week borrowed period by one day each day it checks?

[nikolay.simeonov]

This very good news! I am not sure the documentation made this clear. Or perhaps I mis-read it.

Obviously I was in error of my understanding on the current system. I am sorry if I was overly critical. I am sure you realize the importance of this, which is why you already implemented something like what I was requesting. Thanks.

So how often does the local license server re-borrow the licenses? The important question being: What is the minimum amount of time we will ALWAYS have available (once the licenses are borrowed)? I am hoping that it gets updated daily and extended for another two weeks or whatever so we always have those two weeks.

Also with the local license server re-borrowing on a regular basis I assume this can be done even when the licensees are in use, right? To borrow manually the licenses can't be in use.

The License server will try to reborrow (extend the offline usage of your licenses for 2 more weeks) on the 11th day, from when the first borrow was done. The License server will continue with the borrow attempts for 3 days, you will require an internet connection once during that time. The borrow process should be quite fast. You will be able to use the licenses for the whole 2 weeks, if your internet connection fails for the last 4 days in a row - you will lose the license usage.

The license server will reborrow the exact same amount of licenses you borrowed the first time. If you want to add more or release some of the licenses - you will have to do this manually.

[nikolay.simeonov]

Thanks for clarifying all of this.
I do now see that the doc page has been comprehensively reworked, making it actually much clearer than it was when I had my problems a while ago.
That page was most certainly not clear and definitely (at least for me) suggested that it was not an automatic process and that we had to remember to re-borrow licenses periodically.
So hopefully now everyone can be assured that if they borrow their license once for any machine, then that will be the only time they need to do it.
Barring an EMP event of course

Joking aside, why is the 'last 3 days' thing relevant?
Wouldn't it be possible/desirable to shorten that time so that it checks daily and simply advances that 2 week borrowed period by one day each day it checks?

I will send your feedback to our Documentation team. I agree that our documentation was kind of messy in the past, but we have been really trying to improve in that department.

If your license server has, even sporadically, an internet connection, the reborrowing process is automatic. We have implemented a way for a machine, that is totally off the grid, to act as a license server. In that situation, you will have to do the reborrowing process manually.

Constant checkups might degrade the license service and cause new issues for people with high number of licenses. We are aware that the process is clumsy and are working on ways to make your life easier. To give an example, longer borrowing periods are in the works and might be available soon.

[fixeighted]

Thanks again for the clarification.

It was positive feedback, just to make clear
I only looked at it again because of this post and it is now very clear, so good job on that.
And I know that you have a big job on your hands to update the documentation. The improvements are obvious.

[Nicinus]

The documentation describes both how to activate the Chaos License server without internet connection and how to borrow licenses IF your internet is working. The Chaos license server requires internet connection for borrowing your licenses the first time you install it then once every 12 days.

You will not be able to use V-Ray without internet, if you have not borrowed your licenses for offline use.

So when I've done this initial borrowing I will never have to think about it again as long as I'm connected at least every 12 days? I have no floating licenses.

[nikolay.simeonov]

So when I've done this initial borrowing I will never have to think about it again as long as I'm connected at least every 12 days? I have no floating licenses.

Correct, the only thing you need is an internet connection once during the last 3 days of the borrowing period.

[Joelaff]

Correct, the only thing you need is an internet connection once during the last 3 days of the borrowing period.

Is there a reason not to auto renew the borrowing more frequently? With the current setup we end up with only three days at the end of cycle. Power outages, Internet outages, attacks, routing issues, etc. have all been known to last that long.

Could you not auto renew every day, or at least keep a minimum of one week in reserve? It’s not like it uses much bandwidth at all, perhaps a little CPU for some crypto hashes, but not much in terms of resources.

Also, sure would be nice if the local license server could send out an email if it fails to renew (even one failure we would want to know about). Mail server is local, so we get that email even if internet is down. (Which is rare since we have a backup connection.)

Thanks.

[nikolay.simeonov]

Our backend servers will be constantly spammed by auto-renewal requests. This will degrade the service for all people. Please note that we have stated that V-Ray requires an internet connection to be used. We also understand that this is not applicable in all situations, this is why we have implemented the offline option. We are constantly trying to improve this feature and will continue to do so. I will talk with our developers about the suggestions you gave us.

[Joelaff]

Our backend servers will be constantly spammed by auto-renewal requests. This will degrade the service for all people. Please note that we have stated that V-Ray requires an internet connection to be used. We also understand that this is not applicable in all situations, this is why we have implemented the offline option. We are constantly trying to improve this feature and will continue to do so. I will talk with our developers about the suggestions you gave us.

As a developer and network guru, I understand your concerns and thank you for the reply.

Perhaps once a day is too frequent, but every week might work out. You could look at reducing your network load be shortening the data sent and replied. ZLib or STACK compression is also very easy to implement these days, so perhaps things could be compressed without a lot of effort.

You say the servers would be spammed with auto-renewal request, but how about all the spam you get form people who do not borrow their licenses? You get CONSTANT spam form *most* users (since most people don't look here and have no idea that if their internet drops they lose VRay entirely). Instead, perhaps alter the installer as suggested [somewhere by someone, can't find it, I apologize for not attributing credit properly] such that it offers to setup the local license server to borrow the licenses when installing. This way you significantly reduce your network and server load, and users are happier because they don't bitch and moan when they lose the license when their internet goes out. Right now, you get a checkout request every time someone opens the freaking Render Settings window, or hits render. Or one from each render node every time someone renders. All of these could be quelled by settings users up with a "normal" local license server that checks out licenses rather than check in with your servers for every request. If you offered this at install time I think at least half of users, and well more than half of render nodes users would select it.

Alternately, just increase the borrow period form two weeks to three. Then you get the exact same amount of load on your servers, but users always have ten days (which is reasonable).

Again, you really have to remember licensing is to keep honest people honest. There are plenty of places where people bypass all of this illegally. You know it is going to happen, and you can play cat and mouse putting license checks all over the place. The only people who suffer are the paying customers who want to support Chaos. People looking for free software will just deal with the problems, and they obviously aren't going to complain to support. The goal is to make it a big enough pain that people will be honest and pay for the software without driving away paying customers. The default settings of failing if the internet or Chaos servers are down I think WILL drive away paying customers, which is why I am again repeating that increasing the borrow time (or time out with the auto-renew) and informing users of the always on internet requirement without borrowing at INSTALL time is critical.

You saw how much I freaked out when I learned about it. Hell, I referred to it as a "design flaw" in some thread (sorry about that). You guys/gals/theys obviously put a lot of thought into this, because it wasn't a design flaw at all. You already thought about it. You just didn't notify the user during the install of the risks of not borrowing the licenses.

Just please think of a way to give us all ALWAYS a minimum of one week and I will stop posting to this thread

Thanks for listening, Nikolay.