Clarity on ICC colour profiles

[Guest]

Hello,

I am looking for clarity on ICC monitor profiles as it is still something I am not entirely clued up on. I understand that 3ds Max does not load in any colour management profiles used by windows. Yet other applications such as Photoshop do support them. But you can load these ICC profiles in the VFB, so that everything matches up. However what I don't understand, when doing this the resulting renders are very washed out compared to the standard sRGB/no colour profile approach. Which leads me to wonder what is the correct workflow? If I keep the colour profile I might then choose to saturate my colours to bring them back. but in doing so, am I risking them becoming over saturated on another device/monitor when someone else views the render?

Windows 10 keeps trying to install a monitor colour profile everytime Windows 10 updates, which makes me think it should be there rather than not. Here is is with the ICC profile loaded in. All applications look the same but it looks washed out. The monitor is a Dell UltraSharp U2410.



Here is the VFB without the ICC profile, the colours are more vibrant and better looking. Of course if I removed it from windows colour management then again all applications will look the same. But which is correct with or without the ICC profile?

[hermit.crab]

There isn't a correct workflow, since the color profiles are of your choosing. Monitors with different profiles will preview the image differently, but the point is to know where your renderings will be viewed so that colors match (best stick to defaults if you are not aware). Both images are correct in that sense, it depends solely on the color profiles used in your production and delivery.

[Guest]

Thanks for your advice, removing the colour profile does simplify things for sure. Since the work is predominantly for web and multiple devices i.e phones, tablets, laptops etc. It is impossible to control the final delivery. I guess for my peace of mind, as long as I know what I produce is correct then that is good enough.

[^Lele^]

The suggestion would be to indeed stick to the tried and tested (i.e. sRGB for the standard LDR display).
It's something that *you* can check for fidelity on your hardware, and something that every other device on the planet can interpret, and in case translate/adjust, for display.

[Morne]

I don't agree here

I'd always want my renders to look the same in other apps, than what I see in the VFB, otherwise you're flying blind.

I'd say you should load in the ICC into the VFB, and that way your VFB displays the image correct, in the same way all other apps displays it.


In your screenshots, in the "other apps" category, for both with and without the ICC, the image looks exactly the same my end. ie, in your words it looks washed out. The only image that looks vibrant, is the one with the sRGB displayed in the VFB (it bypasses any windows corrections because max cant display it by default, unless you load it into the VFB manually)

So if you want the teapot to actually be vibrant, you should load in the ICC profile and adjust your rgb diffuse value to make it more vibrant, or adjust the scene's lighting/white balance

[^Lele^]

I'd say you should load in the ICC into the VFB, and that way your VFB displays the image correct

Nope, that's not the case at all.
The image would look correct *if* the output device matched the ICC profile.
A monitor isn't one such device, unless you *specifically* correct for it.

Working under sRGB provision moves the onus over to the person viewing: your colors will be exact, and the viewer has a clear target to match.

p.s. Use a properly color managed viewer to mach what the VFB does. The windows' own isn't one such.

[Morne]

Yeah I'm specifically talking about a monitor that was calibrated by for example an X-Rite device. That ICC gets loaded into windows, but Max ignores it.
Even taking any rendering out of the picture, simply loading a JPG into the VFB will look different than viewing the same jpg in photoshop, windows foto viewer, internet browser, unless you load the ICC into the VFB

So if you're suggesting not loading the calibrated ICC into the VFB and essentially bypassing it, are you also saying we shouldnt bother calibrating monitors?

Not having an ICC loaded into the OS, will display with the default sRGB ICC, and it should look same in all apps, but then you may not be looking at the correct colours as your screen is not calibrated.....


What am I missing here?

I think we're talking the same tech, but somehow I'm not understanding what you're saying Lele...

[^Lele^]

Oh, i may have misunderstood you instead.
Am checking a few things, will get back to you asap.

[Guest]

Yeah I'm specifically talking about a monitor that was calibrated by for example an X-Rite device. That ICC gets loaded into windows, but Max ignores it.
Even taking any rendering out of the picture, simply loading a JPG into the VFB will look different than viewing the same jpg in photoshop, windows foto viewer, internet browser, unless you load the ICC into the VFB

So if you're suggesting not loading the calibrated ICC into the VFB and essentially bypassing it, are you also saying we shouldnt bother calibrating monitors?

Not having an ICC loaded into the OS, will display with the default sRGB ICC, and it should look same in all apps, but then you may not be looking at the correct colours as your screen is not calibrated.....


What am I missing here?

I think we're talking the same tech, but somehow I'm not understanding what you're saying Lele...

So if the monitor has been correctly calibrated, we should use the ICC profile and load this into the VFB. If for example someone comes back and says that the image looks too saturated on their display, phone, tablet whatever, it is their fault not ours? But that would imply that anyone who does not manually load the ICC profile into the VFB has been producing incorrect renders all this time?

The ICC profile is a direct download from Dell, so this in theory should be correct as of manufacture and no further calibration is required?

[^Lele^]

I was wrong, and Morne was right.
Yes James, the sRGB button means utterly nothing in the context of display fidelity, as Max (and us as a result) ignore the OS' settings.
So, once again as Morne said, you should load the monitor's ICC profile in the VFB2 and work away with that.
I had *never* noticed the issue, likely (it's what i like to think) because my color analysis is only done in Post (nuke.).

As for which icc profile, it's best if you used one produced for your display specifically by a calibration process you performed, as factory defaults won't account for display production variability (not that the difference would generally be visible, mind you.).

[Morne]

I'd say you shouldn't use a downloaded profile. If you dont have a device that can calibrate your screen your end, and produce a ICC file for you, you're better off not using one and use the windows default.

If however you do have access to an X-Rite calibration device (or simlar), then do use that to calibrate your screen, let it stick the ICC for you into Windows. Most programs, except Max reads this profile. Therefore to force max to read the profile, you need to manually load it into the VFB.

That ICC profile is yours and yours alone for that specific PC/Monitor in the location your monitor is in your office. That ICC profile will mean little to anybody else, even if they have the same monitor.

[Guest]

Thanks that clears things Up. I wonder what the percentage of users are that don't have an ICC profile loaded and just default to using sRGB?

[^Lele^]

Well, what you miss in that case is only the finer display adaptation: often, for professional and prosumer monitors, that's well within the invisible.
If one had a really poor display, though, the gamma tracking could be miles off, and perhaps show noise where none would be visible in a calibrated setup, which could lead to (much!) slower rendertimes, by virtue of needing to lower noise threshold too much (half the noise threshold, twice the rendertime...).
Ofc, RGB tracking would also be off, in the case of a poor display, but it'd pale in comparison to poor gamma.

[seandunderdale]

Thanks that clears things Up. I wonder what the percentage of users are that don't have an ICC profile loaded and just default to using sRGB?

I think me, for one....I never had the issue when working in studios...or noticed it on my home setup, but since Ive been working from home for the last 6 months, its become an issue. The images you show at the start, inconsistent red saturation, is exactly the issue Im having. Hopefully I can have a proper dig through this thread and solve my problem too.

[Guest]

I think the short of it is get your monitor calibrated and don’t just use a factory colour profile as this can be incorrect as every monitor is different.

Most applications read this colour profile EXCEPT 3ds Max. So you need to load this into VRay VFB. Then everything will match up.

Nevertheless, even though it will look correct for you it might not for the next person unless they also have a calibrated monitor. Not much good if going out on the web across lots of devices. But I guess you have piece of mind that your setup is correct.

if you cannot calibrate your monitor then don’t use any profile at all and delete them from Windows colour management. Just use the standard sRGB setup across all applications but I guess the caveat here is that it’s not as accurate. But if it doesn’t matter in your line of work then it’s a much simpler workflow to manage.

I’m sure some will disagree but that’s how I’m looking at it anyway.