Vray Advice for the Eternal Novice...

[Clifton Santiago]

I am a 37 year old architect who has been using Acad for 14 years (I think I started on Acad 9?) and 8 years ago I switched to modeling in Max. I do arch/viz modeling full-time and I am certain I can model at least 3x faster in Max than Acad.

I was put off at first by the hotkey macros, unlike Acad where you can bury 200 commands in your left hand. But I've learned in the time it takes to type in "e", "x", "t", and right-click to activate (my) extend command in Acad, I can already have extended the line in Max (click on spline, sub-object hotkey, cycle to spline sub-object via hotkey, and extend hotkey).

I suppose its all about what you commit to work in. The real reason I suggest to my students they stop modeling in CAD (or Rhino) is not for immediate modeling speed, but for the longer-term efficiency of working natively. Native geometry is more likely to be clean, it has UVW coordinates, and there is no import/export process. Also, by working in one program 10-12 hours a day, you learn to think like the program (becoming "one" with the program, i.e. cyborgism) and you are more able to get it to do what you want. I think this really helps when it comes to creating convincing materials and lighting.

[Marshall_Craft]

Thread HIJACKERS!!! just kidding; this has been really interesting and helpful for me (a newuser as of a year ago) to read the conversation between CAD and MAX proponents.

Repenseks, I checked out the links for the DVD's and they seem to be EXACTLY what I was hoping for. So, thanks.

I guess my inexperienced two cents would be that I wish MAX had the ability to accept more of a 2D drafting approach as a way to start creating base polylines (splines in MAX i guess,) I find the attach--> trim method rather cumbersome after drafting in CAD for a few years. But then again, you guys kinda lost me with all the macro talk; it sounds like you all have become assimilated into the computer interface itself; kinda scary, but impressive! anyways, that's my 2 1/2 cents.

- Alex

[Candelero]

about the CAD vs MAX:
IMO,
It's all a matter of taste I think.
There are different ways to create and render a box, aren't there ?

So it's all up to the "behind-keyboard device"

Best regards,
nikki Candelero

[CarlosBZ]

Acad highly improve speed with macro commands using lisp programs, very easy to implement, also you can use keyboard software to build serious macro commands much more complex and powerful. The ability in Acad resides in the graphics architecture, in the visualization speed switching views very very fast without expensive graphics adapters. I just can tell from Acad side, I had tried some architectural modeling in Max but I need more understanding to improve my speed there, sometimes is frustrating and embarrassing not be capable to exploit the full power in Max.

[dlparisi]

I was put off at first by the hotkey macros, unlike Acad where you can bury 200 commands in your left hand. But I've learned in the time it takes to type in "e", "x", "t", and right-click to activate (my) extend command in Acad, I can already have extended the line in Max (click on spline, sub-object hotkey, cycle to spline sub-object via hotkey, and extend hotkey).

Not to nitpick, but I've got my ACAD extend command set to 'ET" (every keystroke counts ). I count 4 clicks or keys for your method: click on Spline, press hotkey (you can go directly to spline even), press extend hotkey, click on the spline again. This is assuming the line you are extending to is part of the spline, otherwise you'll have to attach it (another couple clicks at least) so it could be as many as six clicks. In acad it's 5 clicks (for me at least): "E", "T", (Space Bar) twice to select everything, and click the line to extend. However I can extend to whatever I want to whatever I want, I'm not limited to a single line/spline/pline. I can hold down "shift" to trim in the same command as well without exiting. I can select lines to extend via fences, windows.

I'm not bashing Max for modeling but ACAD has a lot of advantages in certain areas over max, and vice versa. Yes, not everything is modelable (is that word?) in cad but I find that a large portion of the arch/viz stuff I do works well in cad and linked to MAX/VIZ.

The real reason I suggest to my students they stop modeling in CAD (or Rhino) is not for immediate modeling speed, but for the longer-term efficiency of working natively. Native geometry is more likely to be clean, it has UVW coordinates, and there is no import/export process. Also, by working in one program 10-12 hours a day, you learn to think like the program (becoming "one" with the program, i.e. cyborgism) and you are more able to get it to do what you want. I think this really helps when it comes to creating convincing materials and lighting.

I agree with you on this but I am yet to see any good tutorials on precise, efficient, arch modeling in max. I don't want to model a cell phone or a character, etc. and this is unfortunatley what most of them are. The workflow for a building just seems so different from these things. I need to be able to DRAW a precise shape in max (such as a cornice) without setting up snaps, grids, etc. I just can't see how to do this (am I missing something?) and as such I'll stick with ACAD...for now .

Sorry for the rant,
David

[Marshall_Craft]

wow, that rant was thorough; i guess i'm not even close to 100% efficient in terms of modelling or even drafting in CAD...oh well. I agree about the lack of good architectural modelling tutorials for MAX. I'm sure if you could model a creature you could certainly handle most architectural spaces (gehry aside,) but it's the precision that none of the tutorials I have found ever seem to offer. I know I'm extremely unexperienced with modelling in MAX/VIZ, but the snaps have been almost useless for me (at least compared to the ease of those in CAD.) If MAX could somehow include the ability to draw accurate and quickly made (sp)lines, then I'd be all over spending as much time as I could modelling in it.

When I import my CAD model into MAX (all "solids") doesn't MAX simply convert it to a bunch of Editable Polygons? It doesn't seem to create useless extra geometry, so what is the downside to first modelling the static shell in CAD and THEN chamferring edges and adding entourage in MAX/VIZ?

- Alex

[Clifton Santiago]

What I think is interesting is that those who only model architecture in Acad prefer Acad, and Acad veterans who switched to modeling architecture in Max prefer Max. I have never heard of anyone who used to model architecture in Max that switched to Acad.

[Candelero]

CAD is perfect and much faster when it comes to precise modelling of 2D shapes. You know all that "russian" type of interiors, ceiling cornices, etc.

on the other side, when it comes to poly modelling (MeshSmoothes involved), MAX is the one. Not to mention all the little fillet/chamfers needed for high details and highlights etc. CAD can be a horrour when it comes to this.

As for the precise ARCH modelling , there is no problem at all doing it all in MAX, especially for interiors. One can modell with 1 millimeter accurancy.
If it comes to exterior, well that depends a lot on the 2D (DWG drafts). If they are good enough (precise I mean) then it is also very quick doing the whole building with no problem in time vs CAD.

As I said, it's all up to the technics one uses.

P.S.: My experience:
I did both ways, and I bet my 2 cents for MAX. I feel much faster there.

Best regards,
nikki Candelero

[Marshall_Craft]

What I think is interesting is that those who only model architecture in Acad prefer Acad, and Acad veterans who switched to modeling architecture in Max prefer Max. I have never heard of anyone who used to model architecture in Max that switched to Acad.

I think you just won me over with that point. I know I can continue to do as well as I am right now by sticking with CAD, but I really haven't heard anyone who has started modelling in CAD and then becoming good at modelling in MAX switching back to CAD.

- Alex

[ene.xis]

As for the precise ARCH modelling , there is no problem at all doing it all in MAX, especially for interiors. One can modell with 1 millimeter accurancy.
If it comes to exterior, well that depends a lot on the 2D (DWG drafts). If they are good enough (precise I mean) then it is also very quick doing the whole building with no problem in time vs CAD.

As I said, it's all up to the technics one uses.

P.S.: My experience:
I did both ways, and I bet my 2 cents for MAX. I feel much faster there.

ditto
absolutelly!
i did model extesively in CAD and MAX was for me exactly as described before, a unprecise tool for architectural use. As i gain experience i started to realise the capabilities of MAX and after i saw so many architectural stuff done in MAX i just decided to jump in that boat too! and i can tell u i feel very happy with that decision. though sometimes in i tight schedule job i use mixed thecniches to get the job done in time due of course to my lack of knowledge rather than to a MAX limitation

on top of that i can get scenes done precise and much faster as i lost the bad CAD/architect habbit to model EVERYTHING....

having that said i say stick to whatever u feel confortable with and gets ur work done!if u decide to switch dont expect it to be a jolyride!u have to loose a lot of tricks an (bad)habbits!

my 2 cents

[dlparisi]

So how does one learn how to model "Buildings" in Max? Like many here I can very quickly (maybe not relative to modeling in Max) model a building, interior, etc. and to jump over to max would be a completely unacceptable drop in production speed. I realize there's some learning curve/downtime in learning a new workflow but the transition would be a little harsh. It's not like switching from scanline to VRay - to me it's more like switching from AutoCAD to Illustrator . Yes they're both vector based drawing programs but the similarities kind of end there. For example, if someone told you to draw marketing plans (i.e colored spaces, poche'd walls, fancy text) the normal workflow would be to draw the plans in CAD, export to Illustrator (or photoshop) and add the color and text. Drawing the plans in illustrator from the get go would be absolutely ludicrous. It's a stretch for a comparison but I think it has some validity to it. So back to the question, where/how/when do you switch to max for your modeling? Am I beyond help at this point since I have so much acad under my belt (~16 years)?

[Candelero]

So back to the question, where/how/when do you switch to max for your modeling? Am I beyond help at this point since I have so much acad under my belt (~16 years)?

The easiest way is to uninstall your CAD on the workstation, so you can't get seduced back... and leave only MAX. That's how a friend of mine did

So, either you want it or not, you have to model all in MAX. It hurts a lot, like trying to quit smoking, but in some time you can realize the coffee has different taste without a cigarette. just IMO.

Best regards,
nikki Candelero

[Clifton Santiago]

I think a better analogy would be switching from Acad to Vectorworks, or maybe Acad to Microstation. Though I despise Microstation, it is just as accurate and powerful in 2d as is Acad. I think the same analogy applies in 3d from Acad to Max. With Max's grid, user-grids, snaps and coordinate input dialogs, you can be equally precise as Acad.

[nvanherpt]

i started modelling in max after chatting with clifton santiago last pub meet nearly a month ago. i'm 35 and have been doing 2d/3d in autocad since 1999. i can program it inside out and hit those one key commands faster than i can think.

after doing two projects in max though i would have to say that max is better (wash my mouth out). it's hard giving up the autocad habit. some things take a while how to learn how to model quickly but other things model so quickly you wonder why you ever bothered with autocad.

it's worth the effort to learn.

nik

[geoffc]

Hey, as someone who just upgraded from Viz to Max, and also just dropped way way too much money on a very nice Boxx system, I'm all for being able to do as much as possible in Max. Like the thread starter stated, I'm always looking for good beginner-intermediate tutorials that will increase my efficiency and quality of work in Max.

That all being said, I think the major distinction to be drawn here is the difference between a full time modeler, and an architect who wants to model as a development and presentation tool.

I agree, that the only way to be very skilled in Max would be 'full immersion', not relying on acad. But that would make no sense to a working architect like myself, who is still developing working drawings parallel to a model.
I realize many of you are given a "finished" set of cad drawings, import them into max, trace your splines and go from there. But I'm still spending 8+ hours a day drawing those plans/sections/elevations, and changing them inevitably, then modeling a couple hours at night. So, whether I like it or not, acad will remain my native graphical interface.

Its really too bad that I've never found a seminar or class where an Acad and Max guru could let us literally watch over their shoulder to see how they model/work in Max. The translation of workflow would be very informative to me.