The breathtaking future of automotive visualisation

[Wilyman]

The secret to great automotive rendering is great retouchers
Don't get me wrong, you need to understand HDRLS and Automotive lighting quite deeply but any Automotive CGI artist in here will tell you the raw render(s) and the final render are worlds apart

Couldn't disagree more.
I'm lucky enough to work alongside an outstanding retoucher, but like anything in life, the final results are only as good as what you put in.

Cheers,

John

[grantwarwick]

Couldn't disagree more.
I'm lucky enough to work alongside an outstanding retoucher, but like anything in life, the final results are only as good as what you put in.

Cheers,

John

Your raw renders are print ready? I've seen close before but only in rare situations. 90% of the time, the bonus layers and spec passes being blended correctly with a nice grade make the difference.

[Wilyman]

Your raw renders are print ready? I've seen close before but only in rare situations. 90% of the time, the bonus layers and spec passes being blended correctly with a nice grade make the difference.

No of course not. Neither are any photographs, ever.

Your comments that I was referring to were "The secret to great automotive rendering is great retouchers" and "the raw render(s) and the final render are worlds apart", which I took as pretty dismissive of the importance of the CG artist's contribution.
There are plenty of bad renders out there being rescued by talented retouchers, but the studios who do the best work (The Scope, Recom, PX2 to name three) clearly have very capable 3D artists too. You can tell from the output.

Cheers,

John

[ali_cgi]

"The secret to great automotive rendering is great retouchers"
What a ridiculous statement! Like John I also work with great retouchers, and yes they are very talented but can't/won't work with poor renders,
Lighting a car well in my opinion is one of the most difficult cgi tasks there are, if you give a retoucher shit he will tell you,
Yes there are usually multiple passes, as its usually a waste of time and too limiting / impossible in some situations to try and get everything in one render, just like vfx for films, nothing is done in one pass,
and baking lut's and grades into renders will do nothing but annoy any retoucher / colour grader
Cheers
Ali

[Ihno]

Come on, he didn't said all automotiv CG guys are incompetent. Or that your renders are bad.

[ali_cgi]

"Our lighting artist at Staud worked in the photography studio for 25 years before ditching the camera for a computer. He lights the car as he would a real car (rather than take advantage of features such as excluding and including objects from lights - although in VRED this is rubbish) and the renders always look amazing- but our retouchers really do make a difference. In a perfect world I'd be prepping, shading, lighting, rendering and comping my own renders but when you've got 20+ shots per car... no chance."

I like this way of working! I also find lighting like this without excluding things gives the retouchers extra little bonus's
for example lighting this side of the car might ruin certain areas but might just give a really nice catch light on a wheel or headlight, I think this kind of workflow allows you to explore lighting and blend passes in post to create something special, its very artistic, like painting, as it should be,
But all of the base renders need too look real, not necessarily perfectly lit overall, but realistic in whatever light scenario you put it in.

[Dave_Wortley]

I work with Automotive CGI and Automotive Photography, neither the straight renders or the raw photos look great, there is always blending of renders/photos and cleaning up reflections, painting in highlights to paint lines and forms the client wants to see.

I agree with Grant.

[Wilyman]

I work with Automotive CGI and Automotive Photography, neither the straight renders or the raw photos look great, there is always blending of renders/photos and cleaning up reflections, painting in highlights to paint lines and forms the client wants to see.

As do I, and I wasn't for one second trying to devalue the work a good retoucher does.
But as I'm sure you'll appreciate, they need the raw materials to make a good job of it, whether from a good render or a talented photographer, and Grant's post seemed to dismiss that.

But he's not alone. We've had this conversation before - http://forums.chaosgroup.com/showthr...ows-and-tricks

Cheers,

John

[Dave_Wortley]

I know to the $ the price of a good automotive lighter, they cost enough! They make a huge difference yes, but fundamentally not everything can be done in one render most of the time, that's what I hate with the insinuation of VRed.

[grantwarwick]

As do I, and I wasn't for one second trying to devalue the work a good retoucher does.
But as I'm sure you'll appreciate, they need the raw materials to make a good job of it, whether from a good render or a talented photographer, and Grant's post seemed to dismiss that.

But he's not alone. We've had this conversation before - http://forums.chaosgroup.com/showthr...ows-and-tricks

Cheers,

John

I wasn't trying to dismiss it, I actually said that a deep understanding of Automotive lighting and CGI lighting is a must in my post BUT that that isn't enough. But when it comes to sorting the lines out, the techniques they use to blur layers and overlay them to change the appearance of the paint, figuring out how to keep things looking minimal, even with 25 passes etc is knowledge that 99.9% of artists won't have because we've been busy learning a totally different career. It's the reason why you rarely ever see a solo CGI artist produce print worthy car renders, it can definitely happen, it's just the exception.
But what's interesting is, I've spoken to oldschool photographers who did get it all in the single shot in the 80's and because of the flexibility CGI artists have with being able to create their own lights and environments that knowledge would of been invaluable to us but it seems to be a little lost.

[grantwarwick]

"The secret to great automotive rendering is great retouchers"
What a ridiculous statement! Like John I also work with great retouchers, and yes they are very talented but can't/won't work with poor renders,
Lighting a car well in my opinion is one of the most difficult cgi tasks there are, if you give a retoucher shit he will tell you,
Yes there are usually multiple passes, as its usually a waste of time and too limiting / impossible in some situations to try and get everything in one render, just like vfx for films, nothing is done in one pass,
and baking lut's and grades into renders will do nothing but annoy any retoucher / colour grader
Cheers
Ali

The reason I made the statement is because artists who aren't in the automotive or print industry won't be aware exactly what retouchers are capable of with good OR bad renders and if they think that it's possible to complete these jobs without experts in retouching, they are most likely wrong. It takes greatness from both, but most don't understand that the retouching plays an equal part.

[kosso_olli]

Nope, I've no idea just from the description. It would be best if you can send us a scene where this is reproducible to support@chaosgroup.com

Best regards,
Vlado

Were there any changes made in that direction? If so, can I get access to the nightly builds to try it out? I have a project here that need faster scene updates when moving lights around in very polygon-heavy scenes.