vray and corona

[vlado]

Sometimes it feels to me it's back or down to arch-viz vs. vfx again. You got PRman and Arnold focusing on the high-end VFX/feature animation while Corona (along with other engines) gaining arch-viz users with easy UI/setup and great out-of-box results. I feel it's quite challenging and a constant battle for Vray, with great flexibility and users in both camps asking features they want, to address both, gaining users from both camps, and out-perform each renderer that currently focus on a single market as it grows.

There is some of that, but things are not that divided anymore. Archviz guys do need to render the occasional volume smoke and hair, and VFX guys do need to render interiors and large expanses of landscape. There are also areas in the middle like commercials, where you need to be able to handle anything that comes along...

Best regards,
Vlado

[Moriah]

People will always complain about something, if it's fine for someone it's wrong for another one... But _personally_ I agree that some things could be moved for example:

VrayMtl - Refl and Refract interpolation... who uses it? Also Mental Ray Connection... maybe it can be deleted or just be put into an "Misc" tab or something.
- GGX could be default BRDF
VrayRT - Displacement, Proxies, Motion Blur, etc. on by default. Improved stats on buffer with more/personalized info.
VFB - Some tabs could really use some work. For example the Curves control is awful, LUT loading could have a cycling dropdown menu for faster cycling with keyboard arrows or mouse wheel, too sensitive controls. I really like the stats tab on corona attached to the buffer, personally i hate the floating log window, having it attached to the buffer and easily accessible if needed with the same verbose levels that vray has.
VrayLight - Big mess of tabs, could use some organization too. Loading HDRI's could be probably simplified, look at Redshift for example where i just click "texture", select my hdri and its already in spherical mode. It's a small thing but when you have to do it over and over... Also CC controls that could be linked between VrayHDRI and VrayLight. But for that i guess Vray had to had its own CC node.

Right now on top of my head this is what "annoys" me the most regarding UI and controls. Overall Vray is well organized for me, just some features that could be left behind and others reworked. I mean, look at RS render settings... It scares the shit out of me everytime i open it

Maybe there could be a topic where people could suggest features and vote for the most requested ones. Maybe a sticky on the wishlist section so it could be seen by everyone.

[vlado]

I'd like to hear from some one who left vray for another renderer and didn't comeback (was totally satisfied with the choice)...

There are some of those on the Corona forum, in fact. I'm far from the thought that V-Ray is the renderer to end all renderers, if people feel that another solution works better for them, that's fine. My goal is to make sure that people who choose to use V-Ray can do their job easily and efficiently. And there's still a lot to be done in that regard

Best regards,
Vlado

[Morbid Angel]

There are some of those on the Corona forum, in fact. I'm far from the thought that V-Ray is the renderer to end all renderers, if people feel that another solution works better for them, that's fine. My goal is to make sure that people who choose to use V-Ray can do their job easily and efficiently. And there's still a lot to be done in that regard

Best regards,
Vlado

That's why we love you Vlado!!!

[Morbid Angel]

Actually I take that back, our love is unconditional.

[vlado]

VrayMtl - Refl and Refract interpolation... who uses it?

They are in their own rollouts; I thought about hiding them completely for newly created materials, but we'll see.

Also Mental Ray Connection... maybe it can be deleted or just be put into an "Misc" tab or something.

Well, don't install mental ray Now at least there is an option in the Max installer. I'm hesitant to remove it completely as maybe people who use mental ray and V-Ray at the same time are using that rollout. On the other hand, if that rollout is completely unnecessary and no-one uses it, you can ask Autodesk to remove it altogether.

- GGX could be default BRDF

It will be when we feel it works sufficiently well. Our implementation currently has some drawbacks that I want to fix.

VrayRT - Displacement, Proxies, Motion Blur, etc. on by default.

That's already done for the next service pack.

For example the Curves control is awful

Which part in particular?

LUT loading could have a cycling dropdown menu for faster cycling with keyboard arrows or mouse wheel, too sensitive controls.

I'm not sure about this one? Why do you need to cycle through the dropdowns so often?

I really like the stats tab on corona attached to the buffer, personally i hate the floating log window, having it attached to the buffer and easily accessible if needed with the same verbose levels that vray has.

The only problem with that is that a lot of people use VFB+ too. What would be your suggestion in that case?

VrayLight - Big mess of tabs, could use some organization too.

I'm not sure what to do about it other than add the same Basic/Advanced/Expert views that we have for the renderer settings, and only show the rollout for the relevant light type (right now we show all three - rectangle, dome, mesh). All of those things are useful in one situation or another.

Loading HDRI's could be probably simplified, look at Redshift for example where i just click "texture", select my hdri and its already in spherical mode. It's a small thing but when you have to do it over and over.

Well, we should also open the dialog to browse for a file, similar to the 3ds Max Bitmap texture... this is somewhere on the "to do" list.

Maybe there could be a topic where people could suggest features and vote for the most requested ones. Maybe a sticky on the wishlist section so it could be seen by everyone.

Hehe, something like Max's "small annoying things"?

Best regards,
Vlado

[Lupaz]

I'm not sure what to do about it other than add the same Basic/Advanced/Expert views that we have for the renderer settings, and only show the rollout for the relevant light type (right now we show all three - rectangle, dome, mesh). All of those things are useful in one situation or another.

Adding a modifier to the light when more options are needed?

[mitviz]

well its good to have both renderers, when you feel your not getting what you need from one just use the other one, only thing missing is now a tool to convert materials from corona to vray in a correct way, that way no worries and alot of people really do have both and use them both, not to mention that corona also has its own scatterer which is also something important and it works! vray could maybe have their own also and squeeze out forest pro or railcone, that's also something.

[LudvikKoutny]

its not uncommon for renderers like arnold f.e. to have two or more versions which are used strictly by a given studio and otherwise not avail to public. I like vray for its extended flexibility. Flexibiliy does mean more options, but its a good thing. The fact that "YOU" as a user do not understand their functionality, or confused by their number is not the renderer's fault

Try looking at render man, or mental ray (from old days).

I've been very active mental ray user, and I've dug really deep into it. I also understand what nearly every single control in V-Ray does Yet, even given these circumstances, I think some are redundant. I don't even think that many of them would be worth removing, just a few. I just think the way they are presented to the end user should change

[Moriah]

Which part in particular?

When you click the curve point it's very common for it to go to ~0.01 or -0.01 instead of staying at 0 or it's current value, for some reason it slides very easily and it screws the curve correction completely. For example i like it better the way you guys have the curves control on Volumegrid, it snaps perfectly.

I'm not sure about this one? Why do you need to cycle through the dropdowns so often?

I'm not a grading expert so i often cycle between LUTs and choose whichever looks good. Have a look at Octane's tonemapper, it has predefined LUT's yes, but you can cycle easily. Maybe choosing a folder and cycle between them, instead of individually picking them? Or Vray could come with a LUT pack, we could cycle between those, and maintain the current option to single pick a custom LUT. I usually use a pack that Grant Warwick shared from AdamMQ that is optimized for Vray if i recall correctly. But it's a very small thing indeed.

The only problem with that is that a lot of people use VFB+ too. What would be your suggestion in that case?

Never mind then It's good that it works with both buffers indeed. I think you guys changed it in a recent nightly, so that i only opens if there's an error/warning? Might be wrong here... Also having a dark theme for the log window so it isn't as intrusive. I use dark themes on everything and vray's log window stands out like an hot chick and you can't stop noticing it.. If it could be more discrete and blend better with the VFB interface and max's dark theme, i wouldn't even mind having it open most of the time.

I'm not sure what to do about it other than add the same Basic/Advanced/Expert views that we have for the renderer settings, and only show the rollout for the relevant light type (right now we show all three - rectangle, dome, mesh). All of those things are useful in one situation or another.

No, what i mean is that it needs some better organization with the common settings, and only show the rectangle tab if you have a rectangle light, dome tab if you have a dome light and hide the others, etc. I can do a simple mockup of what i would personally like if you want.

[vlado]

When you click the curve point it's very common for it to go to ~0.01 or -0.01 instead of staying at 0 or it's current value, for some reason it slides very easily and it screws the curve correction completely.

Yes, that's annoying indeed - will make a note to look into it. You should report these things, you know

I'm not a grading expert so i often cycle between LUTs and choose whichever looks good.

Ok, will think about it.

I think you guys changed it in a recent nightly, so that i only opens if there's an error/warning?

Yes, by default it only opens on error/warning. We'll probably add a button in the VFB to open it during rendering though. Very often I want to check some info message in the log during rendering and if it's closed, I have to do and open the file manually outside of Max, which is irritating.

Also having a dark theme for the log window so it isn't as intrusive. I use dark themes on everything and vray's log window stands out like an hot chick and you can't stop noticing it.. If it could be more discrete and blend better with the VFB interface and max's dark theme, i wouldn't even mind having it open most of the time.

Ok, that's easy enough

No, what i mean is that it needs some better organization with the common settings, and only show the rectangle tab if you have a rectangle light, dome tab if you have a dome light and hide the others, etc. I can do a simple mockup of what i would personally like if you want.

I'd love to see that; definitely can use some inspiration here. Thanks!

Best regards,
Vlado

[LudvikKoutny]

No, what i mean is that it needs some better organization with the common settings, and only show the rectangle tab if you have a rectangle light, dome tab if you have a dome light and hide the others, etc. I can do a simple mockup of what i would personally like if you want.

I had EXACTLY that idea, and wanted to do the mockup as well and post it here. Well, you do this one, I will do the VrayMTL

[LudvikKoutny]

Okay,

I've made some example of how for example V-RayMTL could be cleaned up without losing most of it's functionality. I basically divided it to the two areas - basic and advanced. Basic contains all the daily bread knobs and buttons, and advanced contains all the fakes, legacy stuff and specific things that you touch only rarely, or change only once. Basically things that you do not tweak when you do look development.

Here is the result:


Left is current state, right is my proposed mockup. It shows both all of the UI, and also collapsed version that would make it easier for new/migrating users to get hang of the material.

Only thing I've removed is Fog units system scaling, and I've dared to change Fog multiplier to distance. I think Fog in V-Ray MTL should start to use distance value like pretty much every other renderer has instead of the current potato multiplier? I mean... what's 5 of Fog? 5 units of fog? I can easily estimate how can fog with distance of 100 centimeters look. It even works the correct way in VrayScatterVolume material, so I really think some unification is in order. It's also not uncommon that I have to use values like 0.00001 and even go to my 3ds Max settings and increase spinner precision to be able to input that. Happens especially in larger scenes, with meters as system units for example. With that established, I also removed the Fog system units scaling value, which would become redundant.

[bigbossfr]

There is some of that, but things are not that divided anymore. Archviz guys do need to render the occasional volume smoke and hair, and VFX guys do need to render interiors and large expanses of landscape. There are also areas in the middle like commercials, where you need to be able to handle anything that comes along...

Best regards,
Vlado

Completely true.
I work on commercial and i am very very very happy to work with VRay, and very happy of the UI.
Yes, it can me complicated for some people, but in commercial, we are doing ALL (interiors, exteriors, hair, fx, weird things...). So the flexibility of VRay is perfect (i work on Maya, not Max).

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

well its good to have both renderers, when you feel your not getting what you need from one just use the other one, only thing missing is now a tool to convert materials from corona to vray in a correct way, that way no worries and alot of people really do have both and use them both, not to mention that corona also has its own scatterer which is also something important and it works! vray could maybe have their own also and squeeze out forest pro or railcone, that's also something.

Geez man ...look at this paragraph and at the paragraph at the beginning of the thread.
I took time to read the entire thread and i see that its been proven that corona na vray have a very similar output.
So why do you start with some other stupid requests like the corona has its own scatter?
SO what? When you have perfect FP!!!
Id rather have Vlado focusing on Vray than adding functionality that is sortdd by. Very good plugin which in fact works like if it was made for vray by default.
WHy dont u just stop and go on with it or go and use Corona for gods sake if its so simple.
I tried it and i actually think its not.
Its not been around so long as vray and it will get more complicated as its users start requesting more functionality.
I absolutely love the VRay is working right now but if you want my two cents i would improve:

-
simplified matting and sorting out problems in alpha shadow noise that i produced by default setting
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Option for vray to show the materials in material editor like corona does. For example when youre setting up a sss material you have no idea what youre material is looking like unless you render it. I know this can be done otherwise by using some scripting and calling external material preciew scenes but having a solution within vray would be nice. Now that vray is by default in progressive, it could work or am i mistaken?
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Could vray start making toasts please? And cofee perhaps..that would be quite handy