V-Ray 3.5 denoiser usability problems

[LudvikKoutny]

Hi,

in V-Ray 3.5 I have even harder time using denoiser than in 3.4, due to the numerous problems:

1, I can not find option to denoise only on render end, not during rendering process. I don't want the GPU usage to be freezing my computer while I render, and I also do not want to slow down rendering by unnecessary denoising updates.

2, Denoiser seems to be blurring things in reflections/behind refractions a lot more than competitors' solutions.

3, It is still not possible to hide all the denoiser clutter elements from the V-Ray VFB render elements list, at the same time, denoised result element is now hidden by default. This seems like exact opposite of what users wanted to be fixed.

4, The current strength parameter works in very weird way. Instead of blending over denoised result with source render, it uses some threshold value to do absolute boolean between denoised and noisy render, so instead of softer, less strong noise, you get very ugly result of islands of noise abruptly neighbouring to perfectly unrealistically clean areas without any smooth transition.

5, Whenever using motion blur, denoiser almost always freaks out and blurs everything into even flush surface. This makes it unfortunately unusable for any scenes that include motion blur :/

[PIXELBOX_SRO]

well, after reading this i have to say i agree with most of the points, moreover when used on animation.

However, aside from this, it helped us gread deal to cut rendertimes and we managed to persuade the client the result is to his benefit and doesnt damage the overal look too much.

I cant get rid of the cartoony feel of it all though...even if i use very delicate values for the denoiser.

[matanov]

Hi,

in V-Ray 3.5 I have even harder time using denoiser than in 3.4, due to the numerous problems:

1, I can not find option to denoise only on render end, not during rendering process. I don't want the GPU usage to be freezing my computer while I render, and I also do not want to slow down rendering by unnecessary denoising updates.

Set this to 0. It controls the update frequency of the denoiser and the lens effects.

[vlado]

4, The current strength parameter works in very weird way. Instead of blending over denoised result with source render, it uses some threshold value to do absolute boolean between denoised and noisy render, so instead of softer, less strong noise, you get very ugly result of islands of noise abruptly neighbouring to perfectly unrealistically clean areas without any smooth transition.

The "strength" parameter is not intended to blend anything. It changes some internal parameters of the denoiser. A separate blend parameter was discussed, but eventually most people agreed it was not needed. If anything needs to change, it's the denoiser algorithm itself to produce more pleasant results in such cases.

Best regards,
Vlado

[LudvikKoutny]

Set this to 0. It controls the update frequency of the denoiser and the lens effects.

Thanks, I had no idea about it. I guess it is now centralized control for update rate of the post effects. It is a bit less intuitive though. For one, denoiser settings are now fractured between denoiser element and system rollout, and secondly, there's hardly any implication that parameter has anything to do with denoiser. It requires a bit of mindset change to realize denoiser is internally just a post effect, and many people will simply not pick that up.

Vlado:
Yes, I agree, but IMHO blending is currently only feasible way of achieving pleasant result. I am sure there could be some advanced solutions that would resolve this problem, but from my experience, blending does the job quite well and is trivial to implement. It just kills two flies with one hit - preserves more detail and prevents those abrupt transitions from super clean 0 variance surface to surface with original noise level.

[vlado]

Thanks, I had no idea about it. I guess it is now centralized control for update rate of the post effects. It is a bit less intuitive though. For one, denoiser settings are now fractured between denoiser element and system rollout, and secondly, there's hardly any implication that parameter has anything to do with denoiser. It requires a bit of mindset change to realize denoiser is internally just a post effect, and many people will simply not pick that up.

We'll be adding more effects in the future, it seems. We can't put controls for this all over the place, so it's better to have one place where to control the updates.

Best regards,
Vlado

[LudvikKoutny]

I guess that makes sense

[LudvikKoutny]

One more problem that was not resolved, unfortunately. This was my top request as far as I remember.

When I set Post Effects Rate to 0, and stop the render, denoising does not get calculated. So only way to actually get denoised result on render end is waiting for the noise threshold to stop the renderer. Manually stopping it still doesn't work. Found out just now after 90 minutes of rendering

[vlado]

You can always go to the VRayDenoiser render element and click on the "Update" button manually.

Best regards,
Vlado

[LudvikKoutny]

You can always go to the VRayDenoiser render element and click on the "Update" button manually.

Best regards,
Vlado

Ohhh... I completely forgot about that button. Nevermind then. Sorry, been a while since I used denoiser last time.

Non the less, i think it would be good to have denoiser run automatically when hitting stop button.

[Ihno]

to have denoiser run automatically when hitting stop button.

Rather put a refresh all post effects button somewhere on the vfb.
Would dive me crazy to always have to wait for the denoiser just to cancel the render!

[vlado]

Rather put a refresh all post effects button somewhere on the vfb. Would dive me crazy to always have to wait for the denoiser just to cancel the render!

We can probably make sure that when you click the "Show effectsResult" button in the VFB, if the effects are not up-to-date, they are updated?

Best regards,
Vlado

[matanov]

Actually the denoiser will start automatically on render stop but only in max 2017 when you hit the "Stop" button in the render progress window. The "stop" in the VFB and the "Cancel" in the render progress window are considered as render abort, not actual stop.

[Ihno]

We can probably make sure that when you click the "Show effectsResult" button in the VFB, if the effects are not up-to-date, they are updated?

Best regards,
Vlado

I think this could be confusing. I like switching back and forth between those. And even if it waits for some samples or so.. I think it would be pretty common to accidentally trigger a refresh.

Don't know if this is even possible but in a perfect world it would be like this:

Refresh by clicking the green circle arrow in the dropdown.
This would have some benefits.
- The button only appears when post effects are in use. (without making people wonder why a button is gone)
- I think everyone would immediately know what it will do.
- Not have 3 functionalities on one button triggered by one action (click) which I don't like.
- More visual feedback for what you're looking at (rgb/effects). Not necessary, the switch button already does this job but it wouldn't harm.
And since we are max users, we're used to buttons in dropdowns(layer toolbar). In my opinion that button could be clickable even if the dropdown is closed, unlike the ones in the layer toolbar.

But I'm really no UI designer others may hate my idea