right click to minimise values no longer works

[^Lele^]

There is a specific value for a default in the paramblock of max classes, to which properly written UIs should default to when a spinner is right-clicked.
That people did UIs backwards, leaving stuff out out of lazyness, and that you got used to it, does not make it right, nor any bit more efficient.

If 0 is the value you so crave, well, that's a single keypress, it could hardly be made any more efficient (enter a spinner, and then zero-tab your way through. why use a mouse, at all?).
And that's only for when 0 is actually the value one wants. RMC to zero does absolutely nothing for anyone which would expect slightly more intelligent a behaviour from UI components (say, LC subdivs, Noise Threshold, or a sphere radius, a light intensity, the examples are literally endless.).

Complex, multi-digit defaults are a lot harder to recover once lost, you'll agree, and it's our view that those specifically are what values should always be reset to if a user RMCs on a spinner: not shift, not control, as the feature Is there to aid precisely those which lost their way.
In fact, the behaviour is implemented across most of the relevant UIs, not just the render settings panel, specifically to have default, optimal values ready to be used at any time.

[NicoC]

Hi Lele,

Well, tbh, you've definitely got one point here, your opinion makes sense to me ... I've used 3dsmax for 17 years now, and the RMC to set any spinner back to 0 is now an hard habit ! if it's complicated to change, let's keep the current RMC behavior then. It's really low priority I guess.

[^Lele^]

There was a suggestion for a different behaviour if one clicked the upper or lower arrow, or with modifiers (i'd not be opposed to a shift/control click setting spinners to 0, following my above statement), but I am not sure how much work would that turn out to be (fixing the UIs behaviour like this was already quite a load on the person which took care of it. A special kind of torture, if you asked me...), nor if it would turn out to confuse people through the giving of choices, rather than "just" force them to take the best help we can give, so to speak.

There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument, so let's keep the debate up, lest we miss some synthesis which may benefit us more!

[kosso_olli]

Can you please change this to be the same as the standard Max behaviour? I just encountered this thing again in the blend material. Right clicking the blend amount percentage doesn't do anything, because someone defined 100% to be the default value. Before I could just right click the spinner to set the amount to 0, which I have to do a lot for testing purposes while creating shaders.
Really, this is totally contrary to the rest of Max, and very un-intuitive!

[Vizioen]

Yeah please don't fix what's not broken. Default values could be shift + rightclick or similar.

[anthonyh]

whether the rmc functionality was a mistake or not, vray now runs counter to how 3dsmax does. standardisation should be the way across compatible software. if you can get autodesk to change it`s functionality as well then that could also be a solution but as you say we have become used to it so it`s now our de facto standard.
as an example most software conforms to ctrl-c/ctrl-v for copy paste on windows and when someone decides their software is going to do it different it can be a right pain. imagine if after effects or other had `alt-shift-r` and `alt-shift k` for copy/paste because why not and then photoshop something different and microsoft word different again ? (i wouldn`t put it past adobe heh!).
a user shouldn`t need to remember different basic functionalities over many different software programs for the same purpose. something bespoke is obviously fine to create a new method for which is why the suggestion of shift-right click is a good example because it `adds` to the standard rather than rewriting it.
anthonyh

[^Lele^]

Can you please change this to be the same as the standard Max behaviour? I just encountered this thing again in the blend material. Right clicking the blend amount percentage doesn't do anything, because someone defined 100% to be the default value. Before I could just right click the spinner to set the amount to 0, which I have to do a lot for testing purposes while creating shaders.
Really, this is totally contrary to the rest of Max, and very un-intuitive!

Ever noticed the checkbox by each layer?
EDIT: ah, for the textute influence you'll have to use the keyboard, and type 0, followed by the enter key. A DEFAULT for a texture slot with a texture in it makes sense to be at 100%, not 0%, regardless of your opinion. Just saying.
EDIT #2: It's also a THIRD of the work to re-enable a layer, by rmc, rather than typing 100, followed by the enter key, than typing 0 and enter is to a rmc.

Yeah please don't fix what's not broken. Default values could be shift + rightclick or similar.

It's not going to change back.

[kosso_olli]

It's not going to change back.

Are you serious?

Anyway, wishlist thread because I have the need to speak up against this. Please vote here: https://forums.chaosgroup.com/showth...655#post738655

[anthonyh]

There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument, so let's keep the debate up, lest we mis some synthesis which may benefit us more!

It's not going to change back.

hehe
anthonyh

[^Lele^]

It is perfectly coherent, you see.
The "argument" made in the form it was made is no argument: if you want to quote me, quote me entirely (with the two counter arguments.)

And yes, i am serious: i explained why that is, and why it's been implemented.
The arguments against it, which would throw away work we find very precious, would have to be mightily strong ones.
Surely not "i prefer my spinners to zero out.", which i thought i debunked a FEW posts back, in all honesty (and again above. It's hard to call the big keypd 0 key plus the big keypad enter key a difficult combination to hit.).

[anthonyh]

@lele:
quote shortened for brevity only and was only intended as a bit of fun. it`s chaos` software and i guess you can do what you feel you like more. while your argument is valid so is the opposite, i explained in my post that if all software did this it would be chaos(pun intended) and a pain to remember all the unique shortcuts for each and every software for the same actions(maybe an extreme example but still valid).
apparently it has changed back partially ? i saw another thread about it. maybe in the nightlies ?
anthonyh

[^Lele^]

Ah, i sounded harsher than i intended (i'd have put a like or "ahah" in Fb to your post.).
I DID giggle, to my (puny) defense.

The fact that it isn't everywhere yet is purely due to the time it takes to implement it across all the UIs, and/or some specific, outdated components (say, shaders) may have been skipped entirely.

While i do understand your argument about UIs, i am at pains at trying to see how a simple action like a rmc on a spinner returning optimal defaults (something max wouldn't do, f.e., on successive object creation...) could be construed as overall detrimental.
Olli may cast back his mind to many years ago, when he was young and inexperienced, and such a feature was totally lacking.
The amount of enforcements (through pipeline diktats, scripted tools, scene sanity checkers, and so on), hours spent reviewing scene setups, hours more spent explaining to individual artists how and why some value should be left as origially found would have been spent being productive instead ("If in doubt, please RMC on the spinner. That is your safest bet.").
I was on the side of the one having to write such tools, choose said rules, and explain the many bits of UI to users, as a TD -and the issue's been very common for others in the same position over the years-, so i have quite vivid memories of late night firefighting, when the artists had left already.

With that in mind, if this ain't a godsend, i don't know what is.

[kosso_olli]

Lele, I don't want to annoy you, but let me give you a link to a video from the official 3dsMax learning channel, and listen closely to what she says. The same can be found in a 3dsMax book by Kelly Murdock called "Autodesk 3ds Max 2017 Complete Reference Guide".
Really, I like you as a person, and I understand the point you made on a few pages back, but right clicking a spinner has to reset it to it's minimum possible value. A value of 100% for the blend amount in the VrayBlendMTL is certainly not it's minimum, you agree?


https://youtu.be/6XsmTmPXjuY?t=6m22s

https://books.google.de/books?id=3ef...pinner&f=false

I have no idea how this relates to your statement here though, as I do not have any insight to the development of 3dsMax from decades ago.

There is a specific value for a default in the paramblock of max classes, to which properly written UIs should default to when a spinner is right-clicked.
That people did UIs backwards, leaving stuff out out of lazyness, and that you got used to it, does not make it right, nor any bit more efficient.

[anthonyh]

to be fair the article says `resets to the lowest acceptable value` rather than explicitly stating zero so i`d say this could be open to interpretation. i admit i didn`t read past that so i may have missed something.
anthonyh

[Art48]

In my opinion now this is only a getting-used-to at first. When you think about it you actually have more value from it when it resets to a predefined (and hopefully good researched and acceptable) parameter, especially in render settings. Putting in a 0 you can do manually without thinking. Pulling a reasonable default value on the other hand is sometimes not so easy and therefore we have actually added value in having it behave like it does currently. Just my two cents.