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  • Invert scale parameter in TriPlanar map

    Hello,

    now that Autodesk has released its Blended Box map and Corona is about to release one too, it's became obvious that usability of the V-Ray's implementation is inferior to both of them due to the simple fact that scale control is implemented in super counter-intuitive manner.

    Every single time i use VRayTriplanarTex, setting up texture scale is constant sequence of changing scale parameter, doing test render, realizing i got it wrong, returning to Triplanar map UI, re-wiring my though process to this counter-intuitive implementation, doing some math in my brain, and then proceeding to set up the scale. Every single time... this solution simply never saves into the muscle memory.

    This is further amplified to default being 0.01, which adds great deal to the confusion. If it was at least 1.0, then it would feel easier knowing I have to set it to 0.5 if I want the texture to be twice as large, instead of 0.005. Average person rarely associates making something bigger by inputting tiny fraction values such as 0.0001.

    So, I propose two solutions:

    1, Simply invert scale parameter. Larger scale means larger texture and vice versa. That's the logical way... if someone tells you something has larger scale, you immediately assume it's larger. Yet if you increase scale in Triplanar map, texture scale becomes smaller.

    2, Even better, abandon potato value all together, and replace it with world units value, that defines size of larger edge of the texture (square bounding box). So therefore if there's 100cm, I know my texture will have 100cm in the scene. If Local Object coordinates are used, then scale of the local object is used as a multiplier, for example Triplanar map in object mode with scale set to 100cm would make one tile of the texture 200cm if applied on object with XYZ scale at 200.

    Other than that, Triplanar map is awesome and I've been using it extensively in most of my scenes. But every time I drop it in the material editor, I always get that nagging feeling I will have to deal with that counter-intuitive scale mechanism.
    Last edited by LudvikKoutny; 16-11-2016, 05:46 AM.

  • #2
    +1
    I think this also happens at other places, for instance the Stochatic Flakes, or CarPaintMtl.
    https://www.behance.net/Oliver_Kossatz

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    • #3
      +1
      Always found it annoying too!

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      • #4
        Absolutely +1

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        • #5
          Ok, will see what can be done about it. But, on the bright side, now you have a whopping three triplanar textures to choose from

          Best regards,
          Vlado
          I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by vlado View Post
            Ok, will see what can be done about it. But, on the bright side, now you have a whopping three triplanar textures to choose from

            Best regards,
            Vlado
            Well, the Corona's one isn't finished yet, and I am quite skeptical about Autodesk one. Also it is available only in a version of 3ds Max that is still far away from production realiability (and who knows if following ones won't be too). I really like the V-Ray one, it's just that there's this single thing (scale) those others do better, so it will be nice to have it V-Ray equally as well
            Last edited by LudvikKoutny; 16-11-2016, 01:06 PM.

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            • #7
              The Autodesk one is quite advanced, you should play with it.

              Best regards,
              Vlado
              I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by vlado View Post
                The Autodesk one is quite advanced, you should play with it.

                Best regards,
                Vlado
                I just did... it's not bad... but it's 3ds Max 2017 what's grinding my gears It's third update and I still can't reliably select sub object elements in viewport. As long as something so essential remains broken, Max 2017 and all its features won't be more than just toys to play with.

                Also, there are some little usability things I don't like, such as having to click to single axis projection every time I create a new one. It seems small but there is no reason to default to 10% use cases and have remaining 90% of uses cases require clicking a switch first It's definitely a small thing, but knowing Autodesk, it will just stay that way until hell freezes over. With third party plugins, there's always some hope things will be fixed/reconsidered/improved after their release

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by vlado View Post
                  Ok, will see what can be done about it. But, on the bright side, now you have a whopping three triplanar textures to choose from

                  Best regards,
                  Vlado
                  Good to know, thanks! I think it is a general "problem" with you programmer guys. I've had several occasions where I thought that parameters are counter-intuitive. I don't have an example off my head right now but in the end I always thought that this might be a problem that for programmers who coded that function the UI spinner name makes perfect sense and is logical but to the end user it is the contrary.
                  Software:
                  Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
                  3ds Max 2016 SP4
                  V-Ray Adv 3.60.04


                  Hardware:
                  Intel Core i7-4930K @ 3.40 GHz
                  NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 (4096MB RAM)
                  64GB RAM


                  DxDiag

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi,

                    I would like to bump this issue as another, more severe issue arose from the fact that VrayTriplanarTex uses potato multiplier instead of logical units - it seems that when moving assets across scenes with different system units, the scale value does not get correctly converted, resulting in wrong scale.

                    So changing scale to actual distance units would not only make TriplanarTex significantly easier to use, it would also solve this problem.

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                    • #11
                      Hi,

                      any news on this? I've recently noticed that while I don't use Triplanar in V-Ray that often, I use triplanar in Corona all the time, simply since it's so convenient to do so. I can simply view texture image, guess how wide the texture is, let's say ground texture that looks approximately like 1.5*1.5 meter square, and just input 150 centimeters in CoronaTriplanar map size. I was surprised how much such little thing matters.

                      In V-Ray, almost every time I use Triplanar map, I have to re-learn how it works, just to forget it half an hour later. It just never saves into the muscle memory. Most of all, I always have to run test renders to make sure scale of my texture is right, where as with Corona, I know if I put 150cm there, it's going to be 150cm wide, so I don't need to verify if I converted the potato multiplier into scene units correctly by doing a test render. Actually, it's so convenient to use that I use it even on box-type objects that don't need triplanar, just because it's faster than Box-mapping all my meshes.

                      In V-Ray, I often just give up and settle with having possibility of the seams, and rather use Box UVW map projection, just so that I don't have to bother with that inverted multiplier, because I don't want it to pull me out of my flow I am currently in. I use it only in cases where not having seams is absolutely crucial.

                      If I was supposed to for example shading work all day, and that work relied on triplanar heavily, I may end up wasting a lot of time during the day in V-Ray constantly having to tweak and verify by doing test renders if my parameter was entered correctly. One weird implementation of a single crucial parameter is all it takes to demotivate me from using the feature.

                      Moreover, I would like to stress importance of parameters being in actual real world units in general. I know, that the fact V-Ray is plagued by all sorts of counter-intuitive multipliers, is mostly because many of them were implemented back in the day, when there was no real competition for V-Ray, so there was no competition to learn from. But even new features, released in past few versions, still turn out with random multipliers.

                      I'd argue that people do not think in fractions of bounding box size, system units, and things like that. People think in percent, minutes, meters, degrees, and whenever they are presented with some random multiplier, which needs to be converted to one of these units, you are stalling them with shallow unimportant work with nothing to offer in reward. Having to first translate multiplier to units my mind is comfortable with and then apply the conversion eats my time, but does not improve productivity or resulting quality. And that time really adds up at the end of the day.

                      So here are some other examples of features that suffer from random multipliers:

                      VrayScatterVolume uses system units instead of scene units for radius. If I am creating larger scenes, but my system units are centimeters, and I use ScatterVolume for fog, I often end up inputting numbers so large that they get clamped by max. limit of spinner, so I have to modify fog density by making scatter color brighter.

                      All AlSurface and FastSSS2 radii are in system units multipliers instead of display units.

                      VrayDistanceTex uses system units multiplier instead of display units.

                      Post effects rate could be expressed by percentage of CPU time dedicated to post effects vs regular rendering.

                      VrayMTL Fog multiplier - This should be distance value (radius) in display units. Often, if I do murky water in larger scenes, I end up using values like 0.0003. I actually have to go to 3ds Max preferences and increase decimal precision to 4 digits.


                      I really hope something can be done about this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        100% agree on everything said above.
                        Software:
                        Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
                        3ds Max 2016 SP4
                        V-Ray Adv 3.60.04


                        Hardware:
                        Intel Core i7-4930K @ 3.40 GHz
                        NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 (4096MB RAM)
                        64GB RAM


                        DxDiag

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Agree, I like to use it on almost everything as I dont want to shove box maps everywhere. But the scale parameter is just weird.
                          It also doesnt go small enough, even at 0.001 the map is sometimes too big

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                          • #14
                            One of the devs is looking into it.

                            Best regards,
                            Vlado
                            I only act like I know everything, Rogers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vlado View Post
                              One of the devs is looking into it.

                              Best regards,
                              Vlado
                              Nice. You were on the right track with simplifying the UI of VRay. Now these QoL improvements like the stuff mentioned above are easy to implement (I guess so at least) and make a big difference
                              Software:
                              Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
                              3ds Max 2016 SP4
                              V-Ray Adv 3.60.04


                              Hardware:
                              Intel Core i7-4930K @ 3.40 GHz
                              NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 (4096MB RAM)
                              64GB RAM


                              DxDiag

                              Comment

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