Animated Images

[JHuman]

Does anyone happen to know the name of those images you can insert into your model (in max anyways) and they are animated and almost fully 3d, but not 3d if that makes any sense (so when the camera rolls around them you see the back of the persons head and not the front, not a "face me" component). I have googled all my options and searched around but cannot remember what they are called. If anyone has any idea that would be so much help, thanks!

[kwistenbiebel1]

Re: Animated Images

Does anyone happen to know the name of those images you can insert into your model (in max anyways) and they are animated and almost fully 3d, but not 3d if that makes any sense (so when the camera rolls around them you see the back of the persons head and not the front, not a "face me" component). I have googled all my options and searched around but cannot remember what they are called. If anyone has any idea that would be so much help, thanks!

Vray for sketchup can't render them.
They are basically animated textures (.avi) on a 2D surface.
In Max you can animate the billboard (= move it directional) and it will render.

It's a pity Vray for Sketchup doesn't support this.

[JHuman]

Re: Animated Images

Yes thats what I was thinking, but thought I would check it out.

Thanks Biebel

[dalomar_cg]

Re: Animated Images

At this point I wouldn't hold my breath for animated images. Without full blown animation support (SU doesn't even have the concept of frames), then specifying start and stop values for those textures become extremely complex. Maybe version 3, but not for the next one. Sorry guys.

[kwistenbiebel1]

Re: Animated Images

At this point I wouldn't hold my breath for animated images. Without full blown animation support (SU doesn't even have the concept of frames), then specifying start and stop values for those textures become extremely complex. Maybe version 3, but not for the next one. Sorry guys.

Well, that is really a pity.
Sure, SU doesn't support object animation out of the box, but there are ways to set it up using rubies and even render it using Vray for Sketchup, including a smooth camera path.

Support for animated textures is a thing that is missing to be able to make superb Viz animations, comparable to C4D and/or Max.

I really encourage Asgvis to consider implementing AVI textures for Vray for sketchup.

The lack of video textures could be a reason to turn to competing Vray versions on other platforms.

By the way, the use of animated textures not always has the need for object animation.
Animated water surfaces, television screens, advertisement billboards, an animated Sky billboard etc... are examples where animated textures are really useful in camera animations without objects moving.

Regards,
Biebel

[JHuman]

Re: Animated Images

Thanks, yes I was trying to input a moving sky into my animation but after no success thought I would ask the question. Maybe the next release will have these supports. Thanks for all the input.

[dalomar_cg]

Re: Animated Images

No offense guys, but if you're going to work in SU then you're going to have to deal with some of the limitations that come along with it. Animation has some HUGE limitations within SU, and it was never really built for animations in the first place. Yes, there are 3rd party ruby scripts out there that fake/hack animation in SU (and they rely on a lot of tricks if you take a closer look at how they work), but we're not in the business of making V-Ray for SU/(insert ruby script here). If your looking for more fully fledged animation support, then this is something you should really be looking for outside of SU.

We will be looking to expand our animation support as much as we can, but due to the SU environment we are limited in what we can effectively do. When it comes to animating specific parameters this become EXTREMELY difficult. The main reason its difficult is because SU has no concept of time or keyframes. Without these it becomes nearly impossible to dictate when those changes will happen and how even manipulate them.

Right now we have a lot of new features, fixes, and changes that we are looking to add to VfSU...Proxies, additional materials, updated interface, parsing improvements just to name a few. These take development time and testing time. If you want us to put all those on the back burner to put in these kinds of animation features then fine, but I'm not 100% sure that a lot of other users would come to that consensus.

I'm not saying that having animated textures wouldn't be a great feature to add to V-Ray or that I wouldn't want to see them. However, considering the features that are yet to be added, the amount of potential development time to add this feature, and the additional support/documentation/tutorial materials that would have to be made for this one feature alone, I have to say that it does wind up have a low priority on the list of things to add.

[kwistenbiebel1]

Re: Animated Images

Wow, cool features planned !
Proxies and better (faster) parsing, that's great!


About the animated textures.
One of the directors asked me to lift our animation capabilities in the office to a higher level.
I proposed to go full VrayForSketchup for that and buy some licenses.
I figured out good ways to get smooth camera paths (yes it's a hack, but I am sure better scripts will come) and render them using VrayforSU.

I had to admit to the director that animated 'walking people', 'animated water' and moving 'skies' were not possible and he replied we must have that in the workflow.

Do I need to go 3DsMax/C4D now?
The director wants the highest quality...and he's right.

It is my believe, Sketchup and Vray can provide it.
Sometimes I hate sketchup as much as you do (Do you ? ), but in the end it is one of the greatest apps to use and the workflow is the best ever imho.
In good hands, SU is not an underachiever at all compared to the dinosaur apps (even though Google needs to fix some things).

[Jackson_cg]

Re: Animated Images

Nicely put Kwist. I've been making a little headway into Rhino and 3DS Max for a new employer, but it's already apparent that in terms of speed and ease for architectural presentations and especially design SU is still way way ahead. If there was some way for Google to rewrite SU from the ground up (I'm told that's what it needs by folks who know a lot more about such things than I do) allowing for much higher poly-support and plugin efficiency, but retain it's current GUI and workflow plus add the 4th dimension then it'd definitely be on a winning track again. Unfortunately I doubt The Big Rewrite will ever happen so SU will never develop beyond being a very fast orthogonal modeller for exporting to other modelling apps. SU is literally a toy for Google and it's really starting to be evident in its lack of mature development.

[dalomar_cg]

Re: Animated Images

Do I need to go 3DsMax/C4D now?
The director wants the highest quality...and he's right.

Yes you do. I'm sorry to say that but its the truth. Those applications are built for doing that kind of work and therefore have the toolset to do it. SU is not, so achieving that will be extremely hard. It doesn't have to be one of those two, but there are a number of other 3d applications out there that are much, much better suited for animation than SU.

It is my believe, Sketchup and Vray can provide it.

Thats what you believe. I'm telling you that the SU/Vray combination will most likely not. I'm making that evaluation based on a rather thorough knowledge of our current capabilities, what we have planned for the near future, and how much effort it will take to achieve what your asking for. I didn't say never...I just said not anytime soon.

Sometimes I hate sketchup as much as you do (Do you ? ), but in the end it is one of the greatest apps to use and the workflow is the best ever imho.

I don't hate sketchup, I just understand what purposes SU was intended for. Within that realm I think that SU is a fine app and has done something no other app has... reach the masses. What I do have a problem with is that people think that SU is the end all and be all of 3d apps, which is exactly opposite of the case. Take a look at all of the industries that really make their living with 3d modeling and you'll find that none of those industries are using SU. Even in architecture where SU is quite widely used, the architectural work that is at the forefront of digital technique is not using SU. This (to me) says that SU has a great place as a gateway to 3D. It gets people excited about what they can do and interested in knowing more. However, moving on to that next app that will allow for much more capabilities than staying within SU, and I find that people are far too resistant to move away from SU, even though its very clear that it can't do what they want it to.

In good hands, SU is not an underachiever at all compared to the dinosaur apps (even though Google needs to fix some things).

I have been quite surprised at the work that you guys here have done with V-Ray and SU. At times it has knocked me on my ass. And the thing that pops in my head when I see these outstanding images is that you artists are incredibly talented and have a great knowledge of creating 3d environments. As some one who has worked with a wealth of 3d applications I know the effort it takes to get from start to finish in a number of different environments. And getting to the finish product at that level in SU takes so much more effort than getting to the finish product in some other apps. Yea getting started is quicker, but the more and more complexity gets added to a SU project, the more and more cumbersome it is to deal with and work with. This is not the case with other apps, and this alone can save countless hours, if not days. I'm also not counting the added functional capabilities within those apps that would certainly help as well. So even though I'm amazed at the images, I just tend to wonder why SU when there's so much more that can be done with other apps and you guys obviously have the talent and know how to manage those apps.

I've been making a little headway into Rhino and 3DS Max for a new employer, but it's already apparent that in terms of speed and ease for architectural presentations and especially design SU is still way way ahead.

I couldn't disagree more. I've seen a lot of different people work in a lot of different 3d environments and speed has way more to do with how comfortable and how knowledgeable you are within that environment. The other component is what it is you're actually trying to create. SU does really good at creating orthogonal shapes...but for character modeling it wouldn't stand a chance. IOW, speed is relative and one app may be super "fast" at one thing and may be slow as hell with another. I could make something in Rhino in about 3 clicks that would take ages in SU...I could do something in Zbrush that would be damn near impossible in both Rhino and SU.

If there was some way for Google to rewrite SU from the ground up (I'm told that's what it needs by folks who know a lot more about such things than I do) allowing for much higher poly-support and plugin efficiency, but retain it's current GUI and workflow plus add the 4th dimension then it'd definitely be on a winning track again. Unfortunately I doubt The Big Rewrite will ever happen so SU will never develop beyond being a very fast orthogonal modeller for exporting to other modelling apps. SU is literally a toy for Google and it's really starting to be evident in its lack of mature development.

Definitely needed, but as you said it will never happen. When it was @Last maybe...but with google no chance. They are completely fine with where SU is and don't feel like investing the money on it. Thats probably the biggest reason SU7 was almost exactly the same as SU6 (opps did I just say that)

[Jackson_cg]

Re: Animated Images

I've been making a little headway into Rhino and 3DS Max for a new employer, but it's already apparent that in terms of speed and ease for architectural presentations and especially design SU is still way way ahead.

I couldn't disagree more. I've seen a lot of different people work in a lot of different 3d environments and speed has way more to do with how comfortable and how knowledgeable you are within that environment. The other component is what it is you're actually trying to create. SU does really good at creating orthogonal shapes...but for character modeling it wouldn't stand a chance. IOW, speed is relative and one app may be super "fast" at one thing and may be slow as hell with another. I could make something in Rhino in about 3 clicks that would take ages in SU...I could do something in Zbrush that would be damn near impossible in both Rhino and SU.

I think you missed my point regarding SU's speed- I specifically said for architectural presentations and designing. Except for a tiny select group of architects who have the desire and the clients' budgets to design organic buildings the vast majority design orthogonally with the occasional angular element thrown in. For developing architectural designs (and the constant modification and feedback that requires) I still haven't seen anything that could remotely come close to SU in terms of speed. I'd say less than 1% of modelling required for standard architectural models is non-orthogonal and for sure SU shows it's achille's heel when you hit that 1%, but nevertheless whether it's sitting in the meeting room with clients or at my desk with the boss sat alongside barking orders SU is the only software I've seen that allows you to design buildings three-dimensionally almost as fast as you can analyse a modification and make a decision about what to do next. Frank Gehry would disagree, but he's the exception not the rule.

All in all, even when I do make the now-inevitable leap over to Rhino or 3DS Max (I'd prefer Rhino, my boss would prefer 3DS) I'm fairly certain that SU will have a place in my toolbelt for many years to come, if only for early designing and boxing out all the simpler volumetric parts of models.

[thomthom]

Re: Animated Images

Thats probably the biggest reason SU7 was almost exactly the same as SU6 (opps did I just say that)

Yes you did, along with a large number of other people as well, including me.

I used 3DS Max and Rhino when I did my studies. Afterwards when I got a job in an architectural office where SU was the only 3D tool used it's become the tool I've used exclusively since. It's great for the main purposes we do, designing and redesigning, but I wish I some times could use other tools to make animations and be able to deal with larger scenes.
Unfortunately, for me, the models needs to be editable why everyone at the office, so I have to stick with SU. Though, since we've obtained Revit and it seems we're using it for more projects, I'm trying to get people warmed up for 3D Studio Max since it integrates with Revit.
Until then, I continue to push SU to its edges and keep on nagging ASGVis for more and more power.

[kwistenbiebel1]

Re: Animated Images

Hi Dalomar,

I tend to agree with Thomthom that SU in arch firms really can be the central 3D design/ viz tool.

The only thing that sucks about Sketchup is Google. They are not taking their own product serious or is it simply incompetence?

Here some of the vids I made in a SU/ Vray combo. Some are just experiments, but they help to convince the directors in the office to go VfSU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEZm-...channel&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_9HO...el_page&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJzTbWsOQwE&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dk2O8p6g8E&fmt=18

And Dalomar,
Complexer motion CAN be done using SU+ Vray. Not easy, but possible

An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UztTN...channel&fmt=18

[stinkie]

Re: Animated Images

SU is literally a toy for Google and it's really starting to be evident in its lack of mature development.

My thoughts exactly. I was quite hopeful regarding SU's future until I saw those vids Google put online when 7 was released. I knew instantly that Google and I had parted ways, interest wise.

SU7 was almost exactly the same as SU6 (opps did I just say that)

So I am not the only one who noticed that, huh? ;D SU 7 is a disgrace, I have no other words for it - and I don't really care what Coen N. has to say on the subject.

[dalomar_cg]

Re: Animated Images

Jackson,
I got your point, and I'm fully aware of the extent to which SU is used in today's architectural practice. My point is that speed is relative and that the only reason why people proclaim that SU is fast is because they don't know or aren't familiar those other programs.

Kwisten,
The quality of those animations are great, but the camera movements are very confusing at times, aren't very smooth, and have jerky starts and stops. Its not a comment on your animating its a comment on the tools that are available within SU to generate those camera movements. Having full control of all aspects of the camera and easy ways to make the kinds of minute adjustments needed for camera motion is something that is worth its weight in gold in a number of situations. Even with specifying camera and target curves (this is how I've done almost all my animating in Rhino) there still isn't as much control as you'll get within a full animation program. Its hard to understand if you've never animated that way, but trust me it really doesn't compare.